9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
- RSorak 71Westy
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9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
I consider this group to be a reasonable bunch. I find it amazing that people think that their was a conspiracy behind 9/11, with the gov't involved and explosives. I for one think that Osama was behind it all.
What is the general consensus here? Conspiracy or not?
What is the general consensus here? Conspiracy or not?
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
- ruckman101
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
I think, like Pearl Harbor, the powers that be knew and let it happen, to rouse the population to blood lust, that old manufacturing consent bidness.
neal
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
- Randy in Maine
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Some people still believe that it is a conspiricey that the earth is round.
Lunar modules.
Lunar modules.
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- RSorak 71Westy
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Yes Bush wanted to goto war in Iraq. But in the push for war in Iraq, what help is Osama? He had no connection at all to Iraq.
The fact that 9/11 DID get used to justify the Iraq war, is one thing that I will never understand. How did the powers that be convince us (congress) that there was a connection?
The fact that 9/11 DID get used to justify the Iraq war, is one thing that I will never understand. How did the powers that be convince us (congress) that there was a connection?
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
- ruckman101
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Those who questioned this were loudly denounced as unpatriotic and were encouraged to move to another country.RSorak 71Westy wrote:Yes Bush wanted to goto war in Iraq. But in the push for war in Iraq, what help is Osama? He had no connection at all to Iraq.
The fact that 9/11 DID get used to justify the Iraq war, is one thing that I will never understand. How did the powers that be convince us (congress) that there was a connection?
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
I would first say nothing is certain so I don't go all out in any direction, but I would say the official story seems off.
I think the way they avoided saying much about the third building that fell later in the day or evening that was not hit by a plane is pretty odd. WTC7. Many people to this day when you mentioned that are like huh? Third building that fell and no plane hit it!?
They are the masters of deception. They have many years of practice at deceiving and controlling the masses. TV is a power tool.
I think the way they avoided saying much about the third building that fell later in the day or evening that was not hit by a plane is pretty odd. WTC7. Many people to this day when you mentioned that are like huh? Third building that fell and no plane hit it!?
RSorak 71Westy wrote: The fact that 9/11 DID get used to justify the Iraq war, is one thing that I will never understand. How did the powers that be convince us (congress) that there was a connection?
They are the masters of deception. They have many years of practice at deceiving and controlling the masses. TV is a power tool.
- glasseye
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
The only story more preposterous than "It was an inside job" is the story that they tried to sell as the truth.
No steel-framed building has ever collapsed from fire damage, despite many fires that were far, far hotter and burned far, far longer than those we saw that morning.
Even if steel-framed building did collapse from fire damage, what are the odds that it would collapse conveniently, instantaneously at free-fall speeds right into its own footprint?
What are the odds that it would happen three times in one day?
Exactly.
Here's some interesting reading on the physics and chemistry of various hot metals: (a big PDF)
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volu ... Center.pdf
And here's an article that appeared a few days after 911. Very easy reading and very interesting.
http://web.archive.org/web/200202210708 ... index.html
No steel-framed building has ever collapsed from fire damage, despite many fires that were far, far hotter and burned far, far longer than those we saw that morning.
Even if steel-framed building did collapse from fire damage, what are the odds that it would collapse conveniently, instantaneously at free-fall speeds right into its own footprint?
What are the odds that it would happen three times in one day?
Exactly.
Here's some interesting reading on the physics and chemistry of various hot metals: (a big PDF)
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volu ... Center.pdf
And here's an article that appeared a few days after 911. Very easy reading and very interesting.
http://web.archive.org/web/200202210708 ... index.html
"This war will pay for itself."
Paul Wolfowitz, speaking of Iraq.
Paul Wolfowitz, speaking of Iraq.
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Maybe you should start here; these sorts of questions attract those for whom there was always only one answer anyway....
From the Wikipedia site on The 9/11 Truth Movement:
"Criticism
In 2006, a book critic with Time magazine noted that a major problem with films such as Loose Change and most 9/11 conspiracy theories in general is that "the more one thinks about them, the more one realizes how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis, quotes taken out of context, and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses".[72] Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone assessed that the movement "gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration" and expressed concerns about the number of people who believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories.[73]
Stand-up comedian Bill Maher has repeatedly denounced 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "lunatics."
Linguist Noam Chomsky stated that, regarding US government involvement in the 9/11 attacks, "the evidence that has been produced is essentially worthless" and while the American government stood to benefit from the incident, "every authoritarian system in the world gained from September 11th." He argues that the enormous risk of an information leak, "it is a very porous system and secrets are very hard to keep", and consequences of exposure for the Republican party would have made such a conspiracy foolish to attempt. He dismisses observations cited by conspiracy proponents saying, "if you look at the evidence, anybody who knows anything about the sciences would instantly discount that evidence," arguing that even when a scientific experiment is carried out repeatedly in a controlled environment, phenomena and coincidences remain that are unexplained.[74]
Massachusetts Institute of Technology engineering professor Thomas W. Eagar was at first unwilling to acknowledge the concerns of the movement, saying "if (the argument) gets too mainstream, I'll engage in the debate." In response to Steven E. Jones publishing a hypothesis that the World Trade Center was destroyed by controlled demolition, Eager said that adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement would use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they "determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.[75]
Former President Bill Clinton dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theories saying "Nine-eleven was NOT an inside job, it was an Osama Bin Laden job with 19 people from Saudi Arabia, they murdered 3000 Americans and other foreigners including Muslims".[76]
In a research paper written in 2008, Professors in Law Cass R. Sunstein and Adrian Vermeule conclude that theories supported by 9/11 truth movement members "typically spread as a result of identifiable cognitive blunders, operating in conjunction with informational and reputational influences. A distinctive feature of conspiracy theories is their self-sealing quality. Conspiracy theorists are not likely to be persuaded by an attempt to dispel their theories; they may even characterize that very attempt as further proof of the conspiracy...those who hold conspiracy theories typically suffer from a crippled epistemology [...] the best response consists in cognitive infiltration of extremist groups"[77]
Calling conspiracy theorists "the truthers", Bill Moyers states they "...threw out all the evidence of al-Qaeda's involvement, from contemporaneous calls from hijack victims on the planes to confessions from al-Qaeda leaders both in and out of captivity that they had indeed done it. Then, recycling some of the right's sophistry techniques, such as using long lists of supposed evidence to overcome the lack of any real evidence, the "truthers" cherry-picked a few supposed "anomalies" to build an "inside-job" story line".[78]" (Bold is mine)
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement
From the Wikipedia site on The 9/11 Truth Movement:
"Criticism
In 2006, a book critic with Time magazine noted that a major problem with films such as Loose Change and most 9/11 conspiracy theories in general is that "the more one thinks about them, the more one realizes how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis, quotes taken out of context, and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses".[72] Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone assessed that the movement "gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration" and expressed concerns about the number of people who believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories.[73]
Stand-up comedian Bill Maher has repeatedly denounced 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "lunatics."
Linguist Noam Chomsky stated that, regarding US government involvement in the 9/11 attacks, "the evidence that has been produced is essentially worthless" and while the American government stood to benefit from the incident, "every authoritarian system in the world gained from September 11th." He argues that the enormous risk of an information leak, "it is a very porous system and secrets are very hard to keep", and consequences of exposure for the Republican party would have made such a conspiracy foolish to attempt. He dismisses observations cited by conspiracy proponents saying, "if you look at the evidence, anybody who knows anything about the sciences would instantly discount that evidence," arguing that even when a scientific experiment is carried out repeatedly in a controlled environment, phenomena and coincidences remain that are unexplained.[74]
Massachusetts Institute of Technology engineering professor Thomas W. Eagar was at first unwilling to acknowledge the concerns of the movement, saying "if (the argument) gets too mainstream, I'll engage in the debate." In response to Steven E. Jones publishing a hypothesis that the World Trade Center was destroyed by controlled demolition, Eager said that adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement would use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they "determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.[75]
Former President Bill Clinton dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theories saying "Nine-eleven was NOT an inside job, it was an Osama Bin Laden job with 19 people from Saudi Arabia, they murdered 3000 Americans and other foreigners including Muslims".[76]
In a research paper written in 2008, Professors in Law Cass R. Sunstein and Adrian Vermeule conclude that theories supported by 9/11 truth movement members "typically spread as a result of identifiable cognitive blunders, operating in conjunction with informational and reputational influences. A distinctive feature of conspiracy theories is their self-sealing quality. Conspiracy theorists are not likely to be persuaded by an attempt to dispel their theories; they may even characterize that very attempt as further proof of the conspiracy...those who hold conspiracy theories typically suffer from a crippled epistemology [...] the best response consists in cognitive infiltration of extremist groups"[77]
Calling conspiracy theorists "the truthers", Bill Moyers states they "...threw out all the evidence of al-Qaeda's involvement, from contemporaneous calls from hijack victims on the planes to confessions from al-Qaeda leaders both in and out of captivity that they had indeed done it. Then, recycling some of the right's sophistry techniques, such as using long lists of supposed evidence to overcome the lack of any real evidence, the "truthers" cherry-picked a few supposed "anomalies" to build an "inside-job" story line".[78]" (Bold is mine)
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement
- RSorak 71Westy
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Wow so far 3 votes for conspiracy and 3 against. Maybe this group isn't as reasonable as I assumed.
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
- airkooledchris
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
I think it's sad that people both don't give their government enough credit to do the simplest of tasks, yet credit them for the most spectacular things man has ever witnessed.
you can't have it both ways. the stupidest secrets get out all the time, but the hundreds of humans and months of planning (that some of the conspiracies would require to be pulled off) and *nobody* says a word and *everything* goes exactly as planned? yea, right!
you can't have it both ways. the stupidest secrets get out all the time, but the hundreds of humans and months of planning (that some of the conspiracies would require to be pulled off) and *nobody* says a word and *everything* goes exactly as planned? yea, right!
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- Velokid1
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
I've never found the conspiracy theories convincing. And more importantly, it doesn't makes sense on an intuitive level.
- Randy in Maine
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Even Richard Nixon and his guys (John Mitchel, Erlichman and Halderman) couldn't cover up a cat turd.
Do you really think that GWB, Cheney, and Kenny Lay could?
No way.
Do you really think that GWB, Cheney, and Kenny Lay could?
No way.
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- glasseye
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Even after watching the videos of WTC7?Velokid1 wrote:I've never found the conspiracy theories convincing. And more importantly, it doesn't makes sense on an intuitive level.
I'm sorry. One building, I could swallow. But three? I dunno.
"This war will pay for itself."
Paul Wolfowitz, speaking of Iraq.
Paul Wolfowitz, speaking of Iraq.
- Velokid1
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
Yea. I don't know- it's just never spoken to me. And it's definitely in my constitution to want to believe it. You know I hate Bush and I hate big business, especially oil and the military industrial complex.
- RSorak 71Westy
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?
My understanding of WTC7 was that their were large reserves of diesel fuel in the basement for the emergency generators. The fact that people claim that jet/diesel fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel is not relevant because it only has to get hot enough for it to soften just a little, and this happens much cooler than the point at which it melts.
Glad to see some more rational folks expressed their opinion.
Glad to see some more rational folks expressed their opinion.
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.