1979 CA Bus - No Start

[ez2bmyself]

Happy New Year Everybody!

I'm troubleshooting another no-start on my 1979 Westy (Jenny), with newly rebuilt stock FI engine. Colin came by after the rebuild and we got her all tuned up, etc (thanks Colin!). My mechanical skills are very basic, but I'm hoping to fix this issue and avoid another trip to the shop.

During my last trip (4 hours each way), she wouldn't start after a fill-up on the way home. I tried the "hot-start" method of connecting the starter spades but that didn't work. I had been through this before and have already installed a new hot-start relay. I was able to get a jump start home, but she hasn't been able to start on her own since. I've been going through my various manuals, and using Ratwell's step by step. I think I may be on to the problem but not exactly sure.

I had purchased a new battery before the trip. When I got home, after driving for about 2 hours, she wouldn't start. I tried hooking up my neighbors battery instead, and heard a buzzing sound. It appears that somehow I turned on the little motor on the kitchen sink by accident, which may have caused my battery to run down while I was driving home. I took the battery up to my FLAPS and they recharged it for me. I also disconnected the stereo to get that out of the picture. Still no start...

Next, I re-terminated the positive cable on the battery, as it was kind of old, but not corroded. The ground strap is old as well, but seems to test out okay with the meter (using continuity). I was not able to find the tranny ground strap. (?) I pulled all the wires off the starter/solenoid, and cleaned them. The one going to the alternator had a very weak connection so I redid that one, and put them all back together.

Now, whenever I disconnect/reconnect the battery, and turn the ignition key to the first position, the dash lights will come on. When I try to start, nothing happens and the lights won't come back on unless I disconnect the battery again.

So in order to get her running, I disconnect/reconnected the battery, so the dash lights will come on. Then, with the jumper cables she starts up. I tested the battery voltage with her running and got only 12.59v. I turned the headlights on the engine stutters for a brief second, but continues to run. The headlights flicker a little instead of staying solid like they used to. I checked the battery voltage with the lights on and got the same exact reading (12.59v). I left the bus running for 30 minutes, turned it off, and still no start. (Here's a video: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2066612/MVI_0020.AVI)

Following Ratwell's advice, I tried checking continuity on all the starter terminals. They all seem okay except for *Starter (terminal 50) to starter (terminal 30) via ignition switch. I believe I have the correct wires (red/black and red/white), but I do not get continuity with the dash lights on or off. Seems like I would need to be turning the ignition switch for that to happen. I also can't find the transmission ground strap.

Anyway, it seems that the ignition switch is okay since she starts with jumper cables. I wasn't able to test the VR because Ratwell's instructions are incomplete for the novice, and Bentley doesn't cover it, they just say replace it if necessary.

Maybe the alternator is not doing it's job? I suspect this because of the flickering lights once I get her started. But isn't a dash light supposed to come on if the alternator is not charging?

If any of you fine folks have any suggestions for me please let me know.

Thanks for your time!
-Brad

[Amskeptic]

Happy!
I'm troubleshooting another no-start on my 1979 Westy

That's the spirit.

Now, whenever I disconnect/reconnect the battery, and turn the ignition key to the first position, the dash lights will come on. When I try to start, nothing happens and the lights won't come back on unless I disconnect the battery again.

This is classic loose and filthy terminal posts.
Carefully scrape the lead on the posts down to shiny.
Carefully scrape the wire terminal contact-with-post area as well.
When you connect the terminals to the battery posts, snug them up not stupid but enough that they cannot be twisted on the battery posts.

Continuity between ground strap and negative is not the problem here. Current carrying capacity is. You can have continuity at AA battery voltage (ohmmeter test voltage), but no ability to pass 700 amps under starting load. Clean clean clean the battery ground at body connection after you have the battery posts/terminals cleaned up.

Transaxle-to-body ground strap is attached at left side front of transaxle. The strap is attached to the left diagonal arm bracket with a 13mm nut. Clean the contact areas on the diagonal arm bracket and the transaxle, clean the strap contact areas, the washers that pinch the strap and the flat surface of the nut that contacts the washer. This is called "optimizing".
Colin
Colin

[RSorak 71Westy]

When thaings are right you should have 14 volts running across the battery terminals.

[Gypsie]

you may want to invest in one of these:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... CFQQ8wIwAA

[ez2bmyself]

Okay, thanks guys! There is no visible corrosion but I will make sure the terminals are squeaky clean. I'll also make sure that the tranny ground strap is optimized. ;)

I'll report back this weekend...

Thanks!
-Brad

[ez2bmyself]

Okay, so on Sunday I charged the battery to make sure it was 100 %. Then I put a new connector on the positive terminal, and used the battery post cleaner to clean the terminals and posts, as well as the ground strap connection to the body (although I could probably use a new one). I also found the transaxle-to-body ground strap, which was pretty filthy, and cleaned that up as well. I used some Gum Out to clean the two connections that were going to the transaxle near the ground strap, although I'm not exactly sure what that connector is yet.

On first try, she started right up! I checked the voltage on the battery and got 12.98v. After letting her run for about 15 minutes, I checked again and got 12.65v. Much lower than the recommended 14v. I took her for a drive around the neighborhood (good times!), but didn't quite have the confidence to stop anywhere. Once I got home I turned her off, then checked the voltage again and got 12.72.

About 2 hours later (battery now 12.88v) I tried to start her again, and got the same thing. The lights go out when I turn the ignition and do not come back on. About 15 minutes later I tried again but nothing. So I unhooked the negative terminal, and reconnected it, and she started right up! I let her run for a minute or so, then shut her off. Tried starting her again, and she started up fine again. Checked the voltage while running and got 13.02v.

Today (Monday) she started right up again! Battery voltage was 12.86 before starting, and 13,02 while running. After running her for a few minutes, I stopped and tried again. No Start. Disconnected battery, checked votage -12.92v, and reconnected, then she started right up again. I tried this a couple more times and she starts just fine.

Anyway, things seem much better, although I still don't understand what is going on when the ignition lights go out and I have to disconnect/reconnect the battery.

All suggestions and comments are appreciated!

Thanks!
-Brad

[Randy in Maine]

For about $25 you can replace all 3 cables. They like to corrode where you cannot see it. A little "De-Ox" on the connections helps.

When you get the new ones, slice into the pos battery to starter cable sheath and post a picture.

[Gypsie]

I'm with Randy in the corrosion where you can't see it camp.

[Amskeptic]

Okay,
On first try, she started right up!
2 hours later (battery now 12.88v) I tried to start and got lights out when I turn the ignition and do not come back on. About 15 minutes later I tried again but nothing. So I unhooked the negative terminal, and reconnected it, and she started right up!

Today started right up again! Battery voltage was 12.86 before starting, and 13,02 while running.
tried again. No Start. Disconnected battery, started right up again.

I still don't understand what is going on when the ignition lights go out and I have to disconnect/reconnect the battery.

This is interesting and odd. Is there a relay (as in voltage regulator) sticking with battery voltage and, only when you disconnect the battery, it lets go? To test, get the car to play its no-start game. Instead of disconnecting the battery, try unplugging the voltage regulator instead. Replug and try to start.
Let us know. We do have a sort of low battery voltage here, where the starter draw may be pulling the system voltage down.
Colin

[ez2bmyself]

Hey Gang,

I have been driving her for the last 2 weekends and have not had another no start. Actually, she has been running great! Although, I think the voltages indicate that something is not functioning 100%. I will test the VR as Colin suggested the next time she acts up. I was considering replacing it anyway but I'd rather not spend the money unless I'm sure that is the issue. Here are the battery voltages I got yesterday:

12.77v - Before starting, after sitting for one week
12.98v - After 10 minutes of engine idling
12.83v - Engine idling with headlights on
12.90v - Engine idling after driving around town for 30 minutes
12.77v - Engine off

The battery voltage while off remains consistent, but is she getting enough voltage while running? I'd like to test the VR but have nothing to go by except the Ratwell page, and I'm having a little trouble deciphering it. The Bentley manual just says to replace it if it is bad.

Any suggestions??

Thanks again for all the help!

-Brad

[dingo]

Im not aware of stationary battery reading more than 12.6 V. accuracy of meter ? (when the batt inside my meter goes bad, meter gives out high readings)

to get true voltage of battery with ign OFF, turn on headlights for 45 seconds, then turn off..this removes surface charge. Then read your batt voltage for actual usable starting voltage.

1. if you have an accurate meter, there are simple tests to find leaks in the pos or neg side of the charging loop

2. also, low idling charge like 12.7-12.9 is one symptom of a failed diode in alt. There is also a simple test for that whichi can provide

[Lanval]

Can't speak for the battery/year combo explicitly, but have done a good deal of work with battery systems in my old Volvo, and Vanagons.

You're battery, assuming it's healthy, should probably be around 12.75 static; that's assuming it's a fully charged setup.

When running, you should see 13.5 or so continuous in the system, as the alternator charges.

For comparison. In my 92 Volvo, I installed a 90 amp alternator from a later car that was a direct fit. After installing the charging system output 13.89 or so, standard. This is the same output that my 95 Mazda MPV gets, with the OEM charging system still in place.

So;

Iffy alternator for charging issues. Here's the approach:

Start the car, rev it a bit, maybe drive it 'til it's warmed up, then let it idle ~

1. Check the voltage at the battery. Should be at least 13.25 at least. If not...
2. Go back to the alternator and check the voltage there. Is it the same or better?

If better, wiring issue, if same alternator

3. Here things get fuzzy, but approximately in this order:
3.1 Test the voltage regulator, or have a shop do it (See your trusty manual/bug Colin)
3.2 Check around to see if anyone rebuilds alternators in your area. You're looking for an older guy who's been doing it
a long time, and knows what he's doing.
3.3 If you're like me, you just replace the bastard from the best FLAPS, enjoy lifetime guarantee and occasional R & R
'cause the FLAPS don't give a damn about quality.

*******************************************************

No start may be other issues; recently I had to fix my fuel lines, and in doing so, wound up disconnecting the 12 volt line to my starter. I reconnected it, getting a solid slide onto the spade. this seems to have fixed a random no start issue I was having with my FLAPS POS starter.

If you don't hear ANYTHING come on at all, I'd suspect the ignition wiring. No power across the board suggests an early failure. Ignitions are notorious (at least in the vanagon) for failing intermittently AND for being a cheap and simple fix, leading to constant shouting of "Replace the ignition!" on the Samba when people talk about no starts.

If you have power, but some stuff isn't powering (fuel pump, for example) then the issue is further down the line. You'll have to trouble shoot the no-power systems one at a time, or use your voltmeter to [CAREFULLY] work your way back to the break in the 12 v supply at it's common point.

If you have power and fuel, but the engine isn't turning over, then it's back to the starter, and from there the to the engine. Does the starter actually get 12 volts? If so, try whacking the starter solenoid with a stick or some other suitably heavy object... does it start NOW? If so, sticky solenoid.

If you have fuel, and the starter is turning over, then it's back to the engine for the big three:
1. Spark
2. Fuel
3. Air

That order is malleable, but I start by verifying the plugs are firing. Actually, I wait for Colin to show up and then he does it, because he likes to take intelligent shortcuts, which often involve him saying things like: "Now I have to do this just right, or I'll get fried on the spot" (said with a cigarette dangling from his mouth, a plug wire in one hand, and a half-drunk diet Coke in the other); "Now go turn over the starter ~ about three times!"

If 1, 2 and 3 appear to be in working order, check your electronics; 79 has the same primitive (but effective, Colin, effective; I admit as much) fuel injection as the early 80's vanagons (look around here somewheres and you'll find my lengthy discussion/dissection of the 85 vanagon fuel system double relay, which is similar if not the same as your 79's fuel injection*)

That's my overview of that situation (which I face too often to be really comfortable that I've nailed every aspect of no starting...).

Michael L

*discussions of the fuel injection are a little shaky; not always clear on when/where VW introduced fuel injection, because I believe they did it earlier here in CA than in the 48 states model. But my 48 states 82 had what appeared to be the same fuel injection system as 2 79 campmobiles I've looked at ~ but both were in CA, so I'm not certain it's generic.**

ML

**Apparently, reading the thread titles is not my strong point...

ML

[ez2bmyself]

That's good info guys. I really appreciate it. I will work on it this weekend and report back.

Thanks!!
-Brad

[ez2bmyself]

Okay, here's the latest... She had been running fine for the past 2 weekends as I noted. This Saturday I checked the battery voltage after sitting for 1 week and it was 12.68v. When I put the key in and turn the ignition on, the voltage is 12.60v. Then I put the headlights on for 45 seconds as recommended to eliminate surface charge, and the reading was 12.50v. Next, I put the high-beams (brights) on for 5 minutes, and the charge was down to 12.22v. I turned everything off and waited 5 minutes and the charge was back to 12.62 volts.

After doing this test, which I guess indicates that the battery is sufficient (it's a brand new battery), I tried to start her again and now we are back to where we were. The ignition lights come on, but when I turn the key, there's a single click, then the lights go out and she will not start again. This time I tried disconnecting the VR to see if the lights would come back on and they did not. I did the battery connect/reconnect and the lights came back, but she would still not start.

I attempted to test the VR based on the instructions at Ratwell (http://www.ratwell.com/technical/ChargingSystem.html), but it doesn't explain where I am supposed to connect the +/- of my meter when looking for these voltages. So not sure how to proceed there. I was considering purchasing a new VR since it definitely looks like the original, and see if that helps. A good friend of mine located a VW mechanic that has several buses who may come over and help me next weekend, so I may just wait until then before I spend any $$$$.

The other recommendation you guys had was to check the voltage at the alternator, which I would like to do but the only instructions I can find for doing so involve a bench test. Is there an easy way to test the Alternator while it is still in the vehicle?

Thanks again for all the help!!

-Brad

[Lanval]

When I suggested that, I meant with the engine running; the idea is that you can see if the voltage coming off the regulator is correct. I can't/won't push start it, you'd have to pull it to test it (most FLAPS will do this) and you'd get the bonus that they'd probably be able to identify the culprit (VR or brushes, etc.) assuming that in fact the alt. is bad.

Given your description though, I'm unconvinced the VR is the issue, as the engine should kick over if the battery is at 12.68, regardless of the status of the alt. The alt is NOT required to run the engine. It only charges the battery, since a source of electricity IS required to run the engine, and the battery only has about 30 minutes of night time driving in at best (ask me how I know )

I'm more inclined to look elsewhere; the ignition switch perhaps, or the starter.

Best,

Michael L