Daily driver, 1600 DP, dual kadrons, runs RICH!

Carbs & F.I.

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Maz804
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Daily driver, 1600 DP, dual kadrons, runs RICH!

Post by Maz804 » Fri May 07, 2010 9:35 am

1971 bus, 1600 DP, dual kadrons, all of a sudden started bogging down and runs SUPER RICH! I changed out the spark plugs that were about a year old hoping it would help, but same thing:

Starts up fine, idle begins to get more rough as it warms up, rich exhaust is even worse than it was before. When it gets warmer it wants to start chugging and die off. If I have to stop on a hill(ass end down), forget about taking off. Too much fuel delivery and stumbles out and dies.

When I barely made it home from school I parked it in the driveway and the next morning I saw this:

Gas is pooled up at both the front and back fuel pump tightening nuts.

Image

Also, there must've been so much flow that it leaked onto the pavement.

Image

Those two spots are gas leaks.

Is my fuel pump bad? I'm going to take it out today and inspect. I don't know how many miles are on this thing as it is a craigslist mystery fuel pump that has served me pretty good the last couple years on this bus.

The Kadron carbs were in like new condition when I got them back in 2008.

I'm thinking I want to bring this back to stock fuel delivery but where can I get a new 34-pict-3 these days?

Also the PO cut out the oil bath stand to make room for his old dual carb system.
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

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Gypsie
rusty aircooled mekanich
Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
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Post by Gypsie » Fri May 07, 2010 9:43 am

have you put a fuel pressure guage on it? I have one if you want to borrow it. It will be packed up soon so strike now and I can get it back after I move in June.

Sticky float valve? Get in there and take a look. might be a hunk o gunk holding things open.

Gremlins?
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Maz804
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Post by Maz804 » Fri May 07, 2010 9:45 am

Was wondering about and doing some research on sticky float valves... Would that make it leak at the pump?
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

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Gypsie
rusty aircooled mekanich
Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
Status: Offline

Post by Gypsie » Fri May 07, 2010 9:48 am

Is it leaking at the pump or pooling at the pump?

Looks to be that gas is pooled around the base of the nut. Look up from there to see if there is a trail above there.

Have you disassembled the pump to see what's happening inside?

Might just be you need a few shims to ease up the pressure.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Maz804
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Post by Maz804 » Fri May 07, 2010 9:57 am

Was looking into shimming it. But why does that automatically happen? Something wearing out inside the pump, or the cam down below? I'm going out to inspect now. Hoping it could be a matter of shimming, as that doesn't cost as much as a new pump. BTW, how are the newer non-rebuildable pumps?

Thanks Stephan!

:bounce:
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

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Gypsie
rusty aircooled mekanich
Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
Status: Offline

Post by Gypsie » Fri May 07, 2010 10:05 am

Maz804 wrote: BTW, how are the newer non-rebuildable pumps?



inexpensive and plentiful. Would be nice to have the one you have working right though.

I wonder about the change as well. Might be something to do with the gasket and spacerblock material compressing and the pump actuator rod NOT compressing.....

I think that adding shim thickness will lower pressure and vice versa.

Could this have been maladjusted for some time and is just now showing the symptoms (ie did you test pump pressure when you did previous work?)
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Maz804
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Post by Maz804 » Fri May 07, 2010 10:25 am

I have never check the fuel pressure... Hmm... I'm going to Shepski's tonight I wonder if he has one. What should fuel pressure be for a dual carb setup?

Here is what it looks like underneath... Needs cleaning fer sure!
Image

Bottom of fuel pump:
Image

After I removed the fuel lines and as I was removing the two nuts fuel easy pumps out the top with very little up and down pressure... maybe too easily.
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

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Maz804
Getting Hooked!
Location: Portland, Oregon
Status: Offline

Post by Maz804 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:13 pm

Okay, so after cleaning everything up (I found the tip of a pencil in the fuel pump filter area) I shimmed it up a bit using about 4 layers of matchbox thick cardboard. It started up fine, revved real nice until it warmed up, then started bogging down again. After I let it sit for an hour or so, there is the same fuel leak coming from the pump.

Image

If I watched carefully I could actually see the gas flowing down.

Me thinks I need a new pump?
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

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Maz804
Getting Hooked!
Location: Portland, Oregon
Status: Offline

Post by Maz804 » Fri May 07, 2010 3:36 pm

Brand new Bosch plugs installed a few days ago with about 15 miles on them. You can see the fresh anti-seize on them.

Image

Image
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

User avatar
Gypsie
rusty aircooled mekanich
Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
Status: Offline

Post by Gypsie » Fri May 07, 2010 4:31 pm

Aren't there pump rebuild kits with diaphrams and such?....
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Mark
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Location: Sooke, BC
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Post by Mark » Fri May 07, 2010 9:51 pm

Until you know your fuel pressure, you shouldn't do anything else. I've had the opposite and run the bowls on my Kadrons dry by having too many gaskets under the pump. With removing just one (of I think 3) gaskets, I achieved the necessary 2 psi fuel pressure and never had issues since.
The point here is it is too easy to change fuel pressure with gaskets under the pump.
'64 Sedan
'74 Westy
aka the "Hoover Bit" repro guy

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Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
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Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 10, 2010 8:35 am

Those diaphragms have to work hard, and the ethanol in today's gas may be tough on old diaphragm material. A rebuild would be the best option if you have the old pump with the anti-percolation valve at the top.

Remember that the fuel pressure is actually generated on the down stroke of the pushrod. The actual pumping action is soley due to the spring inside pushing the diaphram up after the pushrod has pulled it down. Shimming just reduces the amount of movement of the diaphragm.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Maz804
Getting Hooked!
Location: Portland, Oregon
Status: Offline

Post by Maz804 » Mon May 10, 2010 8:45 am

So after putting a new brazil fuel pump on, there are no more leaks from the fuel pump area. This is good. The bad part is fuel dumping out of the right carb!

I removed the linkage, both carbs, and put my original 34pict3 back on there after a bit of spit and shine. After fixing and plugging a couple vacuum ports (still running a 009) it fired up and purred nicely for about 20 minutes until I shut it down again. It's nice having the stock fuel delivery system back on there. I just wish the PO never cut out the oil bath stand to make room for those carbs...

It does seem to run a bit hotter than before. I have the flaps hooked up in the fan shroud but not a thermostat, and I'm wondering if I had the flaps closed or open. A quick search at the other site tells me that pushing the flaps to the drivers side, relieving the spring of tension is opening the flaps.

Now before I can drive it I need to get to Discount and buy an air filter!
"I love the curves man... Early Bays got the curves..."

1970 Riviera: Ramona
1969 Safare Camper: Lucy - reduced to parts
1971 Deluxe Transporter: Miles - sold
1963 Bug - sold
1973 Squareback - sold
1979 Westfalia - sold
1967 Bug - sold
1971 Westfalia - sold

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