Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

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Bleyseng
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:40 pm

I agree that the roads in the USA are crap! Time to spend some Federal dollars on the roads instead of $800 billion on the US military fighting off in far away lands protecting US corporate interests...
Today's drivers seem to not care and just drive above the speed limit on these roads tearing their suspensions to bits.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

Curtp07
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Curtp07 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:34 am

Welcome to Massachusetts!

1. Income tax
2. Property tax
3. Excise tax
4. Sales tax
5. Gas tax
6. Tolls
7. Inspection (tax)
8. Registration (tax)

...and terrible back roads.

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cheesehead
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by cheesehead » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:16 am

Well how does it shift now?

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sgkent
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by sgkent » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:21 am

from the photo it looks like from about 9:00 to maybe 4:00 the full surface of the pressure plate is not fully contacting the disk, putting the load on the rest of the plate. I can see where that would cause shuddering. Best guess is that whomever made the plate did not machine the plate parallel. Could be a one of a kind thing or the whole process by that vendor could be flawed. The eye would not catch that at inspection.

Working in the machine shop gave me a real appreciation for the manufacturing process and how junk is sold. Many manufacturers grade their products when they are made. The sell the subpar (less than Grade A) products at reduced prices to companies who sell to some of the cheaper parts houses. From there the parts make their way to the public. A rep walks in and says, "we have a great deal on XYZ, they are made by ABC company and were a surplus buy. We can sell them to you for $75 less in plain white boxes, or shiny fancy-off-brand boxes instead of factory retail boxes. Interested?" The retailer may not even know that the parts are subpar, and were meant to be sold in a third world country - oh I forgot, we are a third world country now...
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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wcfvw69
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by wcfvw69 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:57 pm

I must have dodged a bullet. I installed that same style Brazilan pressure plate clutch kit with a throw out bearing in my 70' bus. The clutch disk has the center springs and is marked Sachs and is made in Japan. When I installed it, I carefully insured that the plate was centered on the flywheel. It centered w/out additional work.

I have a couple thousand miles on it and it's been perfectly fine. I did look at the "German" 3 arm pressure plate from Wolfsburg West. Others on The Samba said it was a POS w/lots of flaws and issues.

It appears we're playing russian roulette now when we buy these VW parts.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:40 am

wcfvw69 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:57 pm
I must have dodged a bullet. I installed that same style Brazilan pressure plate clutch kit with a throw out bearing in my 70' bus. The clutch disk is Sachs Japan.
I did look at the "German" 3 arm pressure plate from Wolfsburg West. Others on The Samba said it was a POS w/lots of flaws and issues.


Sachs Japan? I didn't know Sachs would use Japanese labor rates to make their stuff. Never seen it. My Japanese clutch disk is made by Exedy Corporation, Osaka Japan.

A new three arm pressure plate? Who would bother? Labor intensive adjustments and how do they stake the nuts at the pivots? The original German Fitchel&Sachs now on Chloe has washers bent over the nut flats, and the Luk Fastback pressure plate has welded nuts.

We now have 200 miles on the original Appetite Commemorative German Fitchel&Sachs pressure plate, and we have the typical issue that I had with the prior clutch assembly on Chloe, namely that when it is cold, it latches with vehemence, then when it warms up, it is all very smooth. I think the release bearing was damaged from all the prior chattering. It had eaten pivot surfaces at the operating fork "yokes". It makes a little moan when the engine shuts off with your foot on the clutch. I hope it finds its new center.

Excellent day with curtp07 yesterday and Tumbledown76 the day before. No photographs with Tumbledown76. How could I photograph when I showed up to torsion arms and spindles and stabilizer bars and rotors and calipers and pretty much everything strewn about the floor? This was a Big Day of reassembly, but we did it. The new ball joints indeed did kill the caster, but we are eternally hopeful that they break in and soon, please. We enjoyed a ranging discussion of current politics, family dynamics, juvenile delinquency, kidz theze daze, and I would have enjoyed a beer but it was late when I had to go.

Curtp07 is an ex-paramedic Medivac pilot, and I pestered him with all kinds of horrible questions about crashes and broken bodies and shock and bleed-outs, and we discussed "favorite plane crashes we have known" and it was all quite horrendous as we adjusted valves and did the breaker points and timing on the brown Champagne Westy:

Image


It is a very nice car and if you should communicate with him, you should stress how much he'd regret getting rid of it. Then we tackled the '75 orange Westy with the really nice orange plaid upholstery and the orange door cards and the annoying brake warning light that turned ON when you stepped off the brakes and turned ON when stepped on the brakes. ?? As we were checking out the engine, it died. He thinks it is the pump. I think he might be right . . .
. . . and if you should communicate with him, you should stress how much he'd regret getting rid of it.

I loved meeting his Great Dane, Dexter, and I do hope we can do another appointment next year.

Image


I need to blast to Rochester NY some seven hours west of here. Chloe must Just Do It. June 15th promises to be quite a day.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Curtp07
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Curtp07 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:21 pm

Wonderful day! I enjoyed yesterday Colin, and thank you again! Today went out and started the Orange..fired right up! Fuel pump was quiet, not nearly the sounds of yesterday hot..I'm going to change it as we discussed with the adapter leads. I have a bad feeling about that pump...or maybe it's a clog that dislodged as you said is a possibility?? I will let you know! Shame we lost the AFM time to that darn thing..

And yes, you're right..keep the buses...the beetle? Meh.

Put me down for next year please! Unfortunately Dex will probably be gone, but who knows..an 11 yo Dane is pretty rare.

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asiab3
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by asiab3 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:37 pm

Amskeptic wrote:A new three arm pressure plate? Who would bother? Labor intensive adjustments and how do they stake the nuts at the pivots?
Me! I would bother! It was the only damn pressure plate I could summon in Southern California that indexed the flywheel properly WITH the early style centering ring. (I did not consider the Kennedy plates that the aftermarket scene raves about. I do not have 170 horsepower so I'm not going to wear my leg out.)

Worth every penny of $200. I have the lightest pedal feel of ANY Volkswagen I have ever driven, and that is priceless in Los Angeles commuter traffic day in and day out. It was very close to being balanced perfectly out of the box compared to the Sachs of Brazil plate I installed on mom's Bug. I trade off the "hyperextension at halfway point" feel of the diaphragm style plate for the lightness and I don't think I would ever trade it back.

The bolts on the arms themselves are held fast with bent-tab washers, like the bolts on the steering box yolk and a few other steering parts, but the tabs are double-ended and larger.

Image


Hecho en Deutschland.

(I bought a cocaine scale on Amazon and balanced the six PP bolts too, so I can put them any which way upon reassembly. :drunken: )

41,220 miles on it, and I'm curious why adjustments I'm missing??

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

TrollFromDownBelow
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:37 pm

Curtp07 wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:21 pm
Wonderful day! I enjoyed yesterday Colin, and thank you again! Today went out and started the Orange..fired right up! Fuel pump was quiet, not nearly the sounds of yesterday hot..I'm going to change it as we discussed with the adapter leads. I have a bad feeling about that pump...or maybe it's a clog that dislodged as you said is a possibility??
Shhh. Don't tell Colin this, but a fuel pump for a late 80's early 90's 2.0 4 cyl Ford Ranger will literally drop right in...as long as you are not a uber purist, as it will eliminate that monster fuel line (which, by the way is kinda hard to find) and the stock square fuel filter (oh yeah, the metal Ranger filter is at least 2x as big) , will have to switch to a Ranger fuel filter (which is twice as big). It's about a third of the cost (or less) of a Bosch. Just be sure you get a pump where you can still use the nice stock oem wire connectors. There's more detail on the samba about this swap. Did my swap 3 years ago, no issues yet.
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
::troll2::

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Amskeptic
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:14 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:37 pm
Amskeptic wrote:A new three arm pressure plate? Who would bother? Labor intensive adjustments and how do they stake the nuts at the pivots?
Me! I would bother! It was the only damn pressure plate
I'm curious why adjustments I'm missing??
Robbie


You misread my reply.
"Who (manufacturer) would bother making one with the labor intensiveness of adjusting the pivot nuts, etc."
Colin
(p.s. I know of no "yolks" in the making of automobile parts, but yokes do crop up here and there)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Curtp07
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Curtp07 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:50 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:37 pm
Curtp07 wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:21 pm
Wonderful day! I enjoyed yesterday Colin, and thank you again! Today went out and started the Orange..fired right up! Fuel pump was quiet, not nearly the sounds of yesterday hot..I'm going to change it as we discussed with the adapter leads. I have a bad feeling about that pump...or maybe it's a clog that dislodged as you said is a possibility??
Shhh. Don't tell Colin this, but a fuel pump for a late 80's early 90's 2.0 4 cyl Ford Ranger will literally drop right in...as long as you are not a uber purist, as it will eliminate that monster fuel line (which, by the way is kinda hard to find) and the stock square fuel filter (oh yeah, the metal Ranger filter is at least 2x as big) , will have to switch to a Ranger fuel filter (which is twice as big). It's about a third of the cost (or less) of a Bosch. Just be sure you get a pump where you can still use the nice stock oem wire connectors. There's more detail on the samba about this swap. Did my swap 3 years ago, no issues yet.
Whoa! I'm all over this one...all for easier to obtain, less expensive, and maybe better quality parts!

Tumbledown76
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Tumbledown76 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:22 pm

I'm alive!

It was a fantastic day with Colin. He arrived to a lot of grunt work. A good portion of it, I could have avoided. So several lessons I will head from now on. 1. only fix what is broken 2. if you hear a problem, pull over a lot fucken' sooner. I had a wheel bearing that fused to the spindle, on the highway, family in tow, didn't take long for trouble to ensue, but long enough. Thanks to him, I (mostly) had everything ready to go and we set ourselves to the task of filling two empty wheel wells. I can't begin to start on the technical, philosophical, hysterical conversations that took place through-out the day, but Colin kept us on task. It was a massive amount of work and cannot begin to express my thanks. I hope to have you come again next year, I'll look-out for the 2018 itinerary. We will have that beer(s).

Other tasks included: Valve adjustment, idle adjustment, branded with fresh IAC timing marks, properly double-clutching, and more and more. wow.

So Colin! An update. The following morning, I take the bus out. I feel the power loss you mentioned when taking it on the test-drive. Quick losses. I pull to the four intersection down the street, stop-sign. Bus dies...does not start back up. Push it to the liquor store (second time I have found myself broken down in that lot). The owner assures me I can keep it there as long as I need, as long as I come back to buy beer later "you're going to need it". At that moment a 89 Syncro pulls up next to me. Sees I am in trouble, but has no ideas. I talk to Jim, the mechanic across the street, and he says he'll look at it...within an hour and a half, he finds that the throttle body gasket has gotten sucked in. The part was on back-order, and showed no signs of a vacuum leak before (after running a smoke test), so I was forced to use the old one, when I re-assembled it. So he sealed it temporarily, I drove it home, cleaned it up and had the work done in under an hour. No more small power losses, no more bus not starting. The community helped on this one, although Jim charged me for his time.

And you will be glad to know that the bus now drives, straight. I called Wagenswest and he said to drive on some bumpy roads as well as have my wife and I jump up and down on the bumper. Amazingly, within 5-10 miles, I could let go of the steering wheel and it was driving straight. Still does! It feels really nice now. I'll still hold on to the old torsion arms, per your suggestion.

Adjusted my clutch pedal per your suggestion and hatred of mine. lol. It really was terrible, it's much better now.

As far as the grind sound we heard when we took a right in the parking lot, I adjusted the front right wheel bearing as suggested the following evening (and did not drive till I did the work). It took me a long time, but I was also trying to get a real feel for the process you took me through. Without referring to other right-ups, I tightened the nut till it just starts to catch the washer 1:1, then just let off, ever so slightly. I then took the screwdriver and at the 10 and 4 position, while continuously turning the wheel, with just enough of the tip of the screwdriver in to touch the washer, I turned it and got an easy movement, repeated again between 10 and 4 and ever so slightly tightening the washer, got to where the movement was 'moderate' but not 'hard' to do. I was amazed at how much room there is for those slight measurements between the time you back off the nut after the 1:1 grab to the point where you finally tighten the nut down with the hex key. I have extremely slight movement when rocking/pulling (with some good force applied) at the 12 and 6 o'clock position, as we set on the passenger's side. At one point I had finished, but the wheel was too stiff. Sure enough, the nut was just a bit too tight on the washer. Am I correct in this process? The grind sound is nearly gone. I does not happen as much, and it's much harder to hear. Happens only on a sharp right turn. Even then, it is not happening consistently. Hmmm...

I brought the bus to 'my Porsche buddy's' house today and we test drove it together. The sound only came up only once, driving through the neighborhoods of Harvard. We put the bus on his lift, he turned the wheel, trying to repro the issue, but we couldn't (perhaps can only happen if under load?). He wanted to check out the small oil leaks, so we tackled that next. On the lift, we cleaned the oil that was there and ran the bus. It appears that after about 10 minutes of running a small drop had formed on top of push rod tube #4 and #2. He thinks it's the cylinder head gaskets. Then again, sounds like this engine was abused before I got hold of it, and it could be 'tired'. I will monitor how much oil I am consuming. I need to run a compression test and oil pressure test, I assume. Also, the nut on the of the oil filler neck appears to be stripped. It wont tighten, and won't back out. I'll be dropping it the engine, no-doubt due to the leak in the heads. I should have done that work when I had the engine out and dug a bit deeper. Live and learn.

It's all new to me over the past year, and I can't thank you enough for the visit, the services rendered and the enjoyable conversations.

Hopefully again next year!

Christophe

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Amskeptic
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:55 am

Tumbledown76 wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:22 pm
I'm alive!

It was a fantastic day with Colin. He arrived to a lot of grunt work. A good portion of it, I could have avoided. So several lessons I will head from now on. 1. only fix what is broken 2. if you hear a problem, pull over a lot fucken' sooner. I had a wheel bearing that fused to the spindle, on the highway, family in tow, didn't take long for trouble to ensue, but long enough. Thanks to him, I (mostly) had everything ready to go and we set ourselves to the task of filling two empty wheel wells. I can't begin to start on the technical, philosophical, hysterical conversations that took place through-out the day, but Colin kept us on task. It was a massive amount of work and cannot begin to express my thanks. I hope to have you come again next year, I'll look-out for the 2018 itinerary. We will have that beer(s).

Other tasks included: Valve adjustment, idle adjustment, branded with fresh IAC timing marks, properly double-clutching, and more and more. wow.

So Colin! An update. The following morning, I take the bus out. I feel the power loss you mentioned when taking it on the test-drive. Quick losses. I pull to the four intersection down the street, stop-sign. Bus dies...does not start back up. Push it to the liquor store (second time I have found myself broken down in that lot). The owner assures me I can keep it there as long as I need, as long as I come back to buy beer later "you're going to need it". At that moment a 89 Syncro pulls up next to me. Sees I am in trouble, but has no ideas. I talk to Jim, the mechanic across the street, and he says he'll look at it...within an hour and a half, he finds that the throttle body gasket has gotten sucked in. The part was on back-order, and showed no signs of a vacuum leak before (after running a smoke test), so I was forced to use the old one, when I re-assembled it. So he sealed it temporarily, I drove it home, cleaned it up and had the work done in under an hour. No more small power losses, no more bus not starting. The community helped on this one, although Jim charged me for his time.

And you will be glad to know that the bus now drives, straight. I called Wagenswest and he said to drive on some bumpy roads as well as have my wife and I jump up and down on the bumper. Amazingly, within 5-10 miles, I could let go of the steering wheel and it was driving straight. Still does! It feels really nice now. I'll still hold on to the old torsion arms, per your suggestion.

Adjusted my clutch pedal per your suggestion and hatred of mine. lol. It really was terrible, it's much better now.

As far as the grind sound we heard when we took a right in the parking lot, I adjusted the front right wheel bearing as suggested the following evening (and did not drive till I did the work). It took me a long time, but I was also trying to get a real feel for the process you took me through. Without referring to other right-ups, I tightened the nut till it just starts to catch the washer 1:1, then just let off, ever so slightly. I then took the screwdriver and at the 10 and 4 position, while continuously turning the wheel, with just enough of the tip of the screwdriver in to touch the washer, I turned it and got an easy movement, repeated again between 10 and 4 and ever so slightly tightening the washer, got to where the movement was 'moderate' but not 'hard' to do. I was amazed at how much room there is for those slight measurements between the time you back off the nut after the 1:1 grab to the point where you finally tighten the nut down with the hex key. I have extremely slight movement when rocking/pulling (with some good force applied) at the 12 and 6 o'clock position, as we set on the passenger's side. At one point I had finished, but the wheel was too stiff. Sure enough, the nut was just a bit too tight on the washer. Am I correct in this process? The grind sound is nearly gone. I does not happen as much, and it's much harder to hear. Happens only on a sharp right turn. Even then, it is not happening consistently. Hmmm...

I brought the bus to 'my Porsche buddy's' house today and we test drove it together. The sound only came up only once, driving through the neighborhoods of Harvard. We put the bus on his lift, he turned the wheel, trying to repro the issue, but we couldn't (perhaps can only happen if under load?). He wanted to check out the small oil leaks, so we tackled that next. On the lift, we cleaned the oil that was there and ran the bus. It appears that after about 10 minutes of running a small drop had formed on top of push rod tube #4 and #2. He thinks it's the cylinder head gaskets. Then again, sounds like this engine was abused before I got hold of it, and it could be 'tired'. I will monitor how much oil I am consuming. I need to run a compression test and oil pressure test, I assume. Also, the nut on the of the oil filler neck appears to be stripped. It wont tighten, and won't back out. I'll be dropping it the engine, no-doubt due to the leak in the heads. I should have done that work when I had the engine out and dug a bit deeper. Live and learn.

It's all new to me over the past year, and I can't thank you enough for the visit, the services rendered and the enjoyable conversations.

Hopefully again next year!

Christophe

Glad to hear that the steering loosened up for you. Do monitor the oil leak and I am not yet sure that I buy this notion that it is leaking between the head and the barrels. Your wheel bearing adjustment procedure looks like you paid attention to the tutelage nicely. Your family thanks you . . . :blackeye:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Tumbledown76
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by Tumbledown76 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:42 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:55 am
Do monitor the oil leak and I am not yet sure that I buy this notion that it is leaking between the head and the barrels.
What do you think it could be?

Christophe

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aopisa
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From NE

Post by aopisa » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:37 pm

aopisa wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:58 am
As I write this it is 45 degrees with a cold, cold rain. I broke down and now have the wood stove burning. Welcome to Summer in Vermont! Today I had planned on finishing up the gauge installation and putting things back together. There is no way I will be found outside a 5 foot radius of the wood stove.

We did quite a bit more than partially install a DD cylinder head temp gauge and marvel at how my engine seems unfazed after shedding a lot of glittery confetti.

-Analyzed, complained and commiserated on current political climate over coffee
- Valve adjustment - slight wear on 3 & 4, not much movement on 1 & 2
- Torqued exhaust studs to 17 ft/lbs
-Discovered that the left side fresh air pipe and the right side heater pipe were loose and reinstalled both
-Adjusted right side heater cable to open and close fully
-Removed EGR filter and blocked off the filter pipe
-Filed and adjusted breaker points. Dwell 43 degrees
-Timing adjusted (statically!) to 28 degrees @3,400 RPM
-Changed oil and filter. Discovered many metal flakes as hopefully residual due to complete oil loss during road trip of 2015
-Pulled and inspected spark plugs. Number 4 slightly black compared to 1-3
-Compression test 120 125 130 142. Cylinder 4 high ( and rising) due to possible carbon build up. *Note compression gauge is different from tests previously performed on this engine
-Adjusted rear brakes
-Installed left fresh windshield air duct that was found lying behind kick panel
-reinstalled loose headlight switch to proper orientation
-mostly installed and programmed Dakota Digital cylinder head temperature gauge
-Test drive revealed shifter still rattling. Origin unknown but seems to be isolated to shifter itself and not down stream components
-Discovered positive camber on left front wheel. Will attempt adjustment soon
-Front disc brakes pulsing. Turn rotors or replace

I promise to change the oil in 1,000 miles and inspect the screen.
Will adjust parking brake cable.

It was a great day. Long and exhausting and a blur as usual when reviewing at the end of the day and yet much too short spending quality time with Amskeptic.

Next visit we will most likely repack the front wheel bearings. Also need to install missing cooling flaps and thermostat.

Owen spent the day filming Colin. He is lamenting the fact that he was not ready every time Colin launched into a story about some adventure, tool or specific part. Still, I have seen the in progress editing and he has captured some quintessential Colin moments. I will post the finished product once he completes editing and color grading the film.


Got the gauge installed. Found that the speedometer dash bulb was knocked out of it's socket during the gauge installation. Reinstalled and now the dash lights work. Although I still cannot find whatever happened to make the radio stop working on that day. :scratch:


Here is Owen's finished video as promised. Nice job Owen.


[media]<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/222448687" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>[/media]

Link to video and description here: https://vimeo.com/222448687
1977 Westy 2.0L F.I.

Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. - Chuang Tzu

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