IAC in Verona, WI

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

Post Reply
User avatar
THall
Getting Hooked!
Location: Verona, Wisconsin
Status: Offline

IAC in Verona, WI

Post by THall » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:14 am

Image
This was my third visit with Colin. It was 83 and sunny the day before he arrived....63 and rainy when he pulled in the driveway, hmmm.

I'm the third owner of this 1978 bus (an interesting side note is the original owners live in my neighborhood) and the previous owner yanked out the FI in favor of dual Webers. After last years visit it became abundantly clear to me that this vehicle deserves to have fuel injection. So, in the off season I was able to source all of the parts I needed to have a very nice functioning FI system. I did the installation and got the bus running prior to Colin's visit....I thought I had achieved victory as Colin would arrive and we would get that engine in perfect tune.

Backup one year. When the bus was still carbed and before I make the decision to go FI I had it rebuilt by Headflow Masters because I wanted an engine I could trust to take me wherever I wanted to go. And, from the information I was finding at the time, Adrian had a stellar reputation. I must plead guilty to being naive because I really didn't get into the details of what the makeup of this engine ultimately would be. I happily shipped off my engine thinking I would simply receive in return a stock VW bus engine. I put in the rebuilt engine, still with carbs, in the spring of 2014 and drove it all summer. It really ran very nice, but I was still having issues with the carbs sometime letting fuel seep into the crankcase that I had prior to the rebuild. Also, when Colin visited last year he determined there was something wonky with the way the brake booster circuit was interacting with the carbs. It was at that point I made the decision to go FI.

So, to return to the part about me being naive to the rebuild process...while Headflow Masters has had some quality control issues lately, this post is not to trash Adrian and his business. The problem lies in the fact that I was oblivious to knowing what to request as far as the components that would go into this engine and he installed a Schneider performance cam. It does not play well with the FI system!! No matter what compensation measures we tried to make the engine idle while timed to the proper specs, it just wouldn't happen....this engine needed more air and it just couldn't be had. Colin was able to temporarily rig up a hose that bypassed the AAR that had a vise grips pinched just right to get it running decent. Ultimately, we decided that wasn't the solution. It ran quite well on the test drive with the bypass hose, but upon returning we decided to call Adrian and get his opinion. Adrian said without blinking that all we need to do is advance the timing by 10 degrees. So, we reconnected the AAR and advanced the timing and got it to idle half way decent. Took it on another test drive and it was actually pretty good. The Dakota CHT gauge did not show any excessive readings and we couldn't detect any pinging of pre ignition. Trust me, every fiber of Colin's being was cringing at this proposed solution, but I believe in the end he decided it kind of made some sort of sense? But, I'll let Colin speak for himself.

That's where things currently stand for now as I'm going to drive and monitor the behavior before we decide what to do long term. In the end I'm fairly certain that I will not be happy until the proper cam is installed in the engine, as the cold idle problem will be an issue for me. And, I really don't want to have to put some sort of band-aid on that. I'm disappointed with end result, but I will be able to drive the bus, and that's makes me happy.

Colin, travel safe and thanks again for sharing your passion, knowledge, and wonderful conversation.
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:56 am

THall wrote: Colin was cringing

Yeah, he was taking a picture of me cringing when I took a picture of him taking a picture of me:

Image

Oh, I was cringing all right.
"Advance the timing ten degrees," said Adrian.
"We'll melt the pistons!" I screamed in my imagination,
"uh, are you sure?" I replied to Adrian.
"The camshaft people said it is safe," said Adrian.
"I've been working on these cars for thirty years without an engine failure EVER," I screamed in my imagination to Adrian, "I've never had a call back in thirteen years," I said to Adrian, "and I have never exceeded the factory timing specifications."
"I have never had a call-back in over twenty years," said Adrian," trust me."

BUT, not being a big ego (no really, I am the very most gloriously humble person I know ), I decided to test Adrian's recommendation with two witnesses (hey Mike!) and the car drove fine at 38* BTDC. That camshaft robs the engine of so much volumetric efficiency at normal rpms, that I could not discern any pinging. Idle still sucks without our "visegrip-moderated AAR bypass system©®™"

The problem I see in this instance is that the engine builder is compromising people's wishes.
Seen it before. :cyclopsani:

Enjoyed our day, replete with those hordes of giggling girls . . .
Colin

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
THall
Getting Hooked!
Location: Verona, Wisconsin
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by THall » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:39 am

Just did a one hour highway run.

Cold idle is non-existent, needs to get warm before it will idle well. Warmed up it's idling pretty good, but not perfect...but very drive-able.

The way out, there was no headwind and she was pulling some decent sized hills strong between 60-65mph with some pedal left. The highest CHT was 383°. The return trip with a bit of a headwind I hit 385° max pulling the larger inclines maintaining 62mph easily.

So, she's got the power and is driving real good when warm...but that cold idle is gonna bug the hell outta me. I really think I need to get the proper cam shaft in there.
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by asiab3 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:41 pm

Interesting stuff. I've requested stock parts on many occasions and received a "why do you want that? This one is shinier and its HD and its fun and its faster and cheap and.." many times. If we're not persnickety about parts, we'll have nothing soon.

So is the bus fuel injected now? If you disconnect the TS2 during cold starts, you can test to see if there is any extra fuel to be given by the ECU. Is the AAR adjustable like a choke? If so, you may be able to dial in more metered air to help the engine along when cold.

Glad it's at least running. Is this the one that was discussed for eight pages??

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:22 pm

asiab3 wrote:Interesting stuff. I've requested stock parts on many occasions and received a "why do you want that? This one is shinier and its HD and its fun and its faster and cheap and.." many times. If we're not persnickety about parts, we'll have nothing soon.

So is the bus fuel injected now? If you disconnect the TS2 during cold starts, you can test to see if there is any extra fuel to be given by the ECU. Is the AAR adjustable like a choke? If so, you may be able to dial in more metered air to help the engine along when cold.

Glad it's at least running. Is this the one that was discussed for eight pages??

Robbie
Eight Page Ronin10 is a Seattle call. We are endeavoring to have a four word conclusion post when our appointment on June 28/29 is done . . . "it runs good now."

Bus is now fuel injected, and I hope THall has some better fuel economy numbers to report, but the inefficiency of the camshaft might rob him of a few miles per gallon.

We covered all fuel and air requirements in the cold start phase. It is not wanting for fuel. It wanted air air air air and gratefully took air from the disconnected decel valve as I was hooking up the vacuum gauge.
The "visegrip-moderated AAR bypass system©®™" allowed us to dial in as much air as we wanted and we got our decent idle, but there was a feedback loop occurring from the intake plenum to the s-boot nipple that rendered the "visegrip-moderated AAR bypass system©®™ not acceptable to me.

This was a close call, close to decent but not quite, quite good higher up, yesyesyes, but life with a VW bus is not about screaming downshifts and hp-to-torque split shifts . . . it is about starting off from stoplights in a genteel and mannerly launch, and the famous VW reputation of yesteryear for starting off in any weather is under assault by the go-fast people who disdain the factory engineering for no better reason than their own ADHD. I kid, I kid.
Nice bus, by the way, a real keeper.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Lanval » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:41 pm

Out of curiosity, did Adrian give a reason for installing a non-stock camshaft?

I'm no expert, but did do some reading about that kind of thing on my volvo 240 ~ they came with a range of camshafts that could be used to affect performance, but usually at some expense. The turbo camshaft (they all had letter designations which I have since forgotten) upped performance on the top end even in a non-turbo engine, but as I recall, idling was really bad ~ lopey and uncomfortable.

So I wonder if this camshaft is meant to achieve something (which I would consider acceptable to some degree) or simply due to cost/availability (less acceptable).

Lanval

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:48 pm

Lanval wrote:Out of curiosity, did Adrian give a reason for installing a non-stock camshaft?

I'm no expert, but did do some reading about that kind of thing on my volvo 240 ~ they came with a range of camshafts that could be used to affect performance, but usually at some expense. The turbo camshaft (they all had letter designations which I have since forgotten) upped performance on the top end even in a non-turbo engine, but as I recall, idling was really bad ~ lopey and uncomfortable.

So I wonder if this camshaft is meant to achieve something (which I would consider acceptable to some degree) or simply due to cost/availability (less acceptable).

Lanval
Very good question. The words are sometimes at odds with the practical decisions made underneath those words. I find it totally wrong to materially affect an owner's experience of their engine for the next 100,000 miles without a crystal clear explanation of the actual compromises. I mean, duh. Duh?
Colin?
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by asiab3 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:14 pm

So now in this case, led it help to offer a curvable distributor to THall? I'm not sure if I said it before, but I have an extra Mallory "customizable advance" distributor laying around. If your FI system uses an SVDA style distributor, it will be plug and play. (Not sure about DVDA compatibility.)

Basically, by adjusting the mechanical advance stops, you can increase your idle timing while maintaining your max mechanical advance number. Then with different weights of springs, you can customize the curve on how you get from idle to max advance.

THall, if you want to experiment you're welcome to it. Just shoot me a PM and we can work out the details.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:24 am

asiab3 wrote:So now in this case, led it help to offer a curvable distributor to THall? I'm not sure if I said it before, but I have an extra Mallory "customizable advance" distributor laying around. If your FI system uses an SVDA style distributor, it will be plug and play. (Not sure about DVDA compatibility.)

Basically, by adjusting the mechanical advance stops, you can increase your idle timing while maintaining your max mechanical advance number. Then with different weights of springs, you can customize the curve on how you get from idle to max advance.

THall, if you want to experiment you're welcome to it. Just shoot me a PM and we can work out the details.

Robbie
That's a peach of an offer, Robbie. But, once we are off the beaten path, we are off the beaten path. Mallory distributors went through a decline in quality that Jake Raby finally decided they were not worth the aggravation. As far as I know, THall does NOT want to dick around with compromises. He did drive the BobD . . . :cyclopsani:

vwlover77 just changed out the performance camshaft he was saddled with. Has been happy ever since.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by asiab3 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:27 am

Amskeptic wrote: That's a peach of an offer, Robbie. But, once we are off the beaten path, we are off the beaten path. Mallory distributors went through a decline in quality that Jake Raby finally decided they were not worth the aggravation. As far as I know, THall does NOT want to dick around with compromises.
Ay, understood. I bought it as a learning tool, and it learned me good. Rather, I learned all about neat stuff like how over-advancing idle timing on stock induction doesn't improve throttle response. And I learned just how much timing a T1 engine DOESN'T like. :pukeright:
He did drive the BobD . . . :cyclopsani:
As did I, around the exact hour that I decided on a 100% stock engine actually...... :drunken:
vwlover77 just changed out the performance camshaft he was saddled with. Has been happy ever since.
That's a lot of time and effort to be spent, and a slippery slope of parts and time for sure, but I bet the result will be so worth it.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
THall
Getting Hooked!
Location: Verona, Wisconsin
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by THall » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:39 am

Amskeptic wrote:
That's a peach of an offer, Robbie. As far as I know, THall does NOT want to dick around with compromises.
He did drive the BobD . . . :cyclopsani:
vwlover77 just changed out the performance camshaft he was saddled with. Has been happy ever since.
Yes, thank you Robbie, I do appreciate the offer as well as all of your contributions to this forum as well as the Samba.

Colin is correct...unfortunately I think I'm gonna have to suck it up and take the path vwlover77 did to find my happiness. A hard lesson has been learned, but dammit I love this bus and want it right.

-Tim
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

User avatar
locoqueso
Addicted!
Location: Grayslake, IL 60030
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by locoqueso » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:21 am

Amskeptic wrote:
THall wrote:..."Advance the timing ten degrees," said Adrian.
"We'll melt the pistons!" I screamed in my imagination,
"uh, are you sure?" I replied to Adrian.
"The camshaft people said it is safe," said Adrian.
"I've been working on these cars for thirty years without an engine failure EVER," I screamed in my imagination to Adrian, "I've never had a call back in thirteen years," I said to Adrian, "and I have never exceeded the factory timing specifications."
"I have never had a call-back in over twenty years," said Adrian," trust me."

BUT, not being a big ego (no really, I am the very most gloriously humble person I know ), I decided to test Adrian's recommendation with two witnesses (hey Mike!) and the car drove fine at 38* BTDC. That camshaft robs the engine of so much volumetric efficiency at normal rpms, that I could not discern any pinging. Idle still sucks without our "visegrip-moderated AAR bypass system©®™"
Just curious... Although the bus drove fine at 38* BTDC, is there still concern that the engine eventually suffer an early failure with that timing?
1978 VW Campmobile (P-21) Westfalia - T2 2.0L F.I.- 151,000m
1982 Mercedes-Benz Estate Wagon (300TD-T) - S123 3.0L T.D. - 142,000m
1993 Dodge Maxi Van (190 SLF) InterVec Falcon - B350 Magnum 5.9L F.I. - 70,000m

User avatar
Happyfolk
Getting Hooked!
Location: Verona, WI
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Happyfolk » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:10 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Idle still sucks without our "visegrip-moderated AAR bypass system©®™"
I live about a 10 minute drive from Tim and though I'd only met him in person once he was gracious enough to let me observe his session with Colin. The weather sucked and Colin especially wasn't digging it! But Tim & Colin were great guys to spend the day with. I'm fairly new to bus maintenance and learned a lot and the entire day was very interesting. Colin's phone conversation with Adrian was EPIC and I really felt privileged to witness it in person! Colin is extremely passionate about keeping what is left of these buses running as they should run and as they were designed to run.

Here's a pic of the "visegrip-moderated AAR bypass system©®™" for posterity.

Image

In Adrian's defense, most people are trying to get more horsepower out of these engines than they have fully stock. Before Thursday I may have become one of those. Colin believes that leaving everything stock gives you sufficient power and trying to get more will only cause other issues and reduce the longevity of the engine. After meeting Colin in person and getting to witness his passion and experience I'm now convinced he's right. =D>

Colin's bus:
Image

Colin & Tim at work:
Image

Test drive:
Image
79 CA FI Westy
Mexico Beige
"Sandy"

Jivermo
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: IAC in Verona, WI

Post by Jivermo » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:12 pm

Colin's phone conversation with Adrian was EPIC and I really felt privileged to witness it in person! Colin is extremely passionate about keeping what is left of these buses running as they should run and as they were designed to run.
This is going to be interesting.

Post Reply