Eureka! We've Done It . . .

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Amskeptic
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Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:37 am

It was on my way into Eureka to the airkooledchris, pdlrofdrm, and mojogoat appointments . . .

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Ten miles later, I was saying goodbye to my old well-respected Michelin LTX tires that had put in a good 20,000 miles of my kind of driving on the Road Warrior and another 40,000 miles on the BobD and put on a set of offroad worthy Maxxis 751 tires, like those on Chloe. Had a little fun at Les Shwab Tires in Eureka.
"Make and model?"
It's a Volkswagen bus, 1978."
"Oh cool . . . how many miles on your van?"
"Twelve."
"Twelve what, thousand? Only twelve thousand?"
"Twelve miles."
"Only twelve miles?"
"What, are you saying that it doesn't look it?"
"Well, no, yeah, but it is damn it is good looking, twelve MILES? How, why, what do you need tires, then?"
"Dry rot."
"Oh man, I have got to see this . . . heey, these tires have more than twelve miles on them."
"Aww, you got me. The odometer just turned over in Arcata."

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I have no photographs of our appointments. When the temperatures drop below SIXTY under misty clouds, I just huddle in long pants and a long sleeved shirt. SUCH a wimp.

Airkooledchris and I discussed some rust issues and did a relaxed day of transmission bearing retainer plate and removal of the spring-loaded shifter gate in his 091. Come 6:00PM, he says, "well, I guess we won't get to the windshield channel rust, that's OK, just need to put it on my list."
. . . We got to the windshield all right. Yanked that sucker out and plowed into the rust, the fiberglass, the mesh screen the bondo, the RTV, and we hit the channel with sand paper, rust-catalyzing paint, bondo, and made a fine mess of things very much like Elwood endured. Airkooledchris' eyebrows are getting a little arched by the time the light failed.
"I'll come back tomorrow, after pdlrofdrm's appointment, and we can do some primer, then I will come back after mojogoat's appointment and we can re-install the windshield, is your life able to absorb all that?"

Did a fine day of driving around with pdlrofdrms getting her engine to run nicely. Tuned it up and tried to get the CHT numbers to calm down by playing with the AFM while she drove. Discovered anew that temperatures relate very closely to how much work the engine is doing. I would lean it out on the hills, she would note a loss of power, the CHTs would stabilize, then I would richen it, the power would go up, so would the CHTs. Oy. Did an asiab3 check of the Dakota Digital ring terminal under the spark plug. Mauled. We straightened it out with a cone shaped tool that she tells me stretches out people's earlobes (?) and gingerly reinstalled it to see if the temp readings might go down like they did for asia3b. As of evening, the temps apperared to be lower. Went back to airkooledchris, primed and color-sanded the windshield channel, left to camp in a parking lot in Fortuna CA for the next day's appointment.

Mojogoat has a '78 Champagne Westy and a beautifully stocked garage. More beautiful was his engine, over-built to a level of detail that about paralyzed me. Every wire, every clamp, totally dressed with wire ties and protectors, all painted and detailed to a magnificent level. Yet, the engine would only run if we energized the cold start valve. Jumped right in to diagnose. I am all cocky. The most difficult fuel injection diagnosis and repair was Soulful66's engine many years ago, where it took me four hours to track down a no-start to a little connector in the ECU plug that had been pushed out and prevented the injectors from grounding.

Do you think I checked injector grounding? Sure did. Damn things had voltage, were grounding too. We did everything. We had spark, well-timed, we had air, we had no vacuum leaks, we had continuity throughout his personally taped fuel injection wiring harness, we had lovely fuel pressure. I was running out of diagnostic options pretty quick, Mr. Cocky here was getting decidedly less cocky. Swapped the AFM with another one, swapped the ECU with two other ones, and we all know that parts swapping is just an indication of a mechanic losing his way. Finally, I am focused on the following fact:
It runs on the cold start valve.
It does not run on the injectors. It has to be the injectors.
"I shipped them to Cruzin Performance, they reconditioned them."
We have voltage to the injectors, we have pulsed grounding at the ECU.
I powered one of the injectors with the ignition on/ engine off to look for a fuel pressure drop on the gauge (that is how you can check for injector operation without tearing apart an engine that has been bolted and tied and glued together). No pressure drop!
We decided to swap in some old injectors on the left side. Well. Now the engine runs on two cylinders.
We swap in two more old injectors.
Engine runs. It is 5:00PM.
Moral Of The Story: "new" or "re-conditioned" does NOT mean you can skip them while diagnosing. None of his Cruzin injectors worked. His old injectors all had a nice spray pattern.

Left Fortuna with a re-committed owner and his running bus to go stick in a windshield in Eureka, airkooledchris' windshield, now installed in a trial-by-fire crash-course repaired/primed/top-coated windshield channel. Looks good even if the seal has too many memories of its old days. Airkooledchris can just install a new seal and windshield any old time he wants.

Off to Eugene and Portland and Washington on my Maxxis 751s at 72 miles on the odometer, I hope it will be too sunny and too hot.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by vwlover77 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:13 am

Amskeptic wrote: It does not run on the injectors. It has to be the injectors.
"I shipped them to Cruzin Performance, they reconditioned them."
We have voltage to the injectors, we have pulsed grounding at the ECU.
I powered one of the injectors with the ignition on/ engine off to look for a fuel pressure drop on the gauge (that is how you can check for injector operation without tearing apart an engine that has been bolted and tied and glued together). No pressure drop!
We decided to swap in some old injectors on the left side. Well. Now the engine runs on two cylinders.
We swap in two more old injectors.
Engine runs. It is 5:00PM.
Moral Of The Story: "new" or "re-conditioned" does NOT mean you can skip them while diagnosing. None of his Cruzin injectors worked. His old injectors all had a nice spray pattern.
Colin
I helped a friend from the local LEAKOIL Bus club change out the injectors on his '77 Bus with a spare set he had shipped off to Cruizin Performance for cleaning. We installed the injectors and the Bus started and idled well. We drove a short distance on a test drive and experienced a few minor "hiccups" from the engine during the drive. We returned back to his garage, shut off the engine, and then had a no-start situation. Long story short, those reconditioned injectors stopped spraying - ALL 4 OF THEM! We reinstalled the original injectors and the engine fired right up. Both he and I tried corresponding by e-mail with Cruizin performance to understand what may have happened but got no response. I can only conclude that something in the reconditioning process left residue that completely clogged the injectors or caused their coils to burn up.
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:27 am

vwlover77 wrote:
I helped a friend from the local LEAKOIL Bus club change out the injectors on his '77 Bus
reconditioned injectors stopped spraying - ALL 4 OF THEM! We reinstalled the original injectors and the engine fired right up. Both he and I tried corresponding by e-mail with Cruizin performance to understand what may have happened but got no response. I can only conclude that something in the reconditioning process left residue that completely clogged the injectors or caused their coils to burn up.
Bingo, we need to update our Known To Be Acceptable/Belatedly Discovered Junk threads. This is not the first time I have dealt with ior heard of this. I have wasted hours of my life diagnosing these damn things and always the original injectors do just fine.

You could get your coronary arteries cleaned out as part of a "re-conditioning package", but you can understand the potential pitfalls of plowing into delicate places, right? Same with these injectors. leave them be. Clean the tips with a little carb spray, yer good.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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airkooledchris
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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by airkooledchris » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:58 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Airkooledchris and I discussed some rust issues and did a relaxed day of transmission bearing retainer plate and removal of the spring-loaded shifter gate in his 091. Come 6:00PM, he says, "well, I guess we won't get to the windshield channel rust, that's OK, just need to put it on my list."
. . . We got to the windshield all right. Yanked that sucker out and plowed into the rust, the fiberglass, the mesh screen the bondo, the RTV, and we hit the channel with sand paper, rust-catalyzing paint, bondo, and made a fine mess of things very much like Elwood endured. Airkooledchris' eyebrows are getting a little arched by the time the light failed.
"I'll come back tomorrow, after pdlrofdrm's appointment, and we can do some primer, then I will come back after mojogoat's appointment and we can re-install the windshield, is your life able to absorb all that?"
So far so good. The front floor area has been dry since the repair and reinstallation of the windshield. It's holding up to the fog/mist that had been collecting. The next test will be actual precipitation - fingers crossed.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:02 am

airkooledchris wrote:
So far so good. The front floor area has been dry since the repair and reinstallation of the windshield. It's holding up to the fog/mist that had been collecting. The next test will be actual precipitation - fingers crossed.
Glad to hear the so-far update. Do you get serious rains?

Jennifer just PM'd me to say her bus is misbehaving again. If at all possible, is there a spare AFM to experiment briefly for her? I am hobbled by being states and states away. She is too worthy for this nonsense!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by airkooledchris » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:06 am

We will *eventually* get some serious rains.

I have two spare AFM's, both of which are specific to a 79CA bus - but I think you can run them anyway. Will have to see if the pins line up or not.

One of them is tweaked specifically to pass smog and the other is setup to run crazy rich.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by airkooledchris » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:06 pm

Jennifers bus ran well and with power using my IAC tuned AFM, though she said it's insanely rich on her bus as it instantly started staining her tailpipe and bus black with soot upon using it.

She still has my spare AFM to fiddle with and try to find a tune that makes her bus happy. I had to get my rich one back as my bus is finally up and running again. Today's test drive was the best so far since firing it up, after spending last night double checking and improving all of the FI and misc ground connections (tighten some of them, apply dielectric grease/etc)

It once again surges in 3rd with all of the smooth constant power I was used to before, without any hesitations. Dwell at 47*, Max Advance at 28*. It's time to finish up the wiring and get my Tach, CHT, A/F meter, oil temp and oil pressure gauges connected and providing data. Then burn up the rest of this tank of gas, change the fuel filter and oil - and hit the road.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:09 pm

airkooledchris wrote:Jennifers bus ran well and with power using my IAC tuned AFM, though she said it's insanely rich on her bus as it instantly started staining her tailpipe and bus black with soot upon using it.

She still has my spare AFM to fiddle with and try to find a tune that makes her bus happy. I had to get my rich one back as my bus is finally up and running again. Today's test drive was the best so far since firing it up, after spending last night double checking and improving all of the FI and misc ground connections (tighten some of them, apply dielectric grease/etc)

It once again surges in 3rd with all of the smooth constant power I was used to before, without any hesitations. Dwell at 47*, Max Advance at 28*. It's time to finish up the wiring and get my Tach, CHT, A/F meter, oil temp and oil pressure gauges connected and providing data. Then burn up the rest of this tank of gas, change the fuel filter and oil - and hit the road.
I need to find a way to get to the lean side of life for economy and clean tailpipe emissions, yet somehow get a quick shift over to full throttle rich. I want 14-15 at light to no throttle, pow! 11.2 full throttle.
Haven't discovered it yet. LM-1 probe is black. Are you currently able to run 02 sensor?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by asiab3 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:40 pm

Amskeptic wrote: I need to find a way to get to the lean side of life for economy and clean tailpipe emissions, yet somehow get a quick shift over to full throttle rich. I want 14-15 at light to no throttle, pow! 11.2 full throttle.
Haven't discovered it yet. LM-1 probe is black. Are you currently able to run 02 sensor?
Colin
I have a feeling my readings are skewed due to the horizontal exhaust setup, but the 34pict3 accelerator pump does a fantastic job of this. :cherry:

Robbie

Edit: horizontal, because Chloe should be receiving a Bastardized Splitty Tailpipe soon, so I'm going straight into the damper pipe.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:40 am

asiab3 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: I need to find a way to get to the lean side of life for economy and clean tailpipe emissions, yet somehow get a quick shift over to full throttle rich. I want 14-15 at light to no throttle, pow! 11.2 full throttle.
Haven't discovered it yet. LM-1 probe is black. Are you currently able to run 02 sensor?
Colin
I have a feeling my readings are skewed due to the horizontal exhaust setup, but the 34pict3 accelerator pump does a fantastic job of this. :cherry:

Robbie

Edit: horizontal, because Chloe should be receiving a Bastardized Splitty Tailpipe soon, so I'm going straight into the damper pipe.
I am happy with Chloe.
It is the BobD that I am need to do some experimenting with. I have been frequenting airplane sites to get a good second opinion on the interplay between mixture, work, temperature, and timing.
ColinWakeUpBaffled
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by airkooledchris » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:27 am

I AM running my O2 Sensors now. One for the stock VW system and one for my dash mounted AF/M gauge.

I have a feeling that much uber rich AFM setup was masking a few vacuum leaks somewhere, as this engine does NOT like how rich it is anymore. What I mean by that is that without the factory O2 sensor connected, it's set to run at an almost constant 10.1 across the board unless im WOT - in which case it goes to 9.3

With the factory O2 sensor connected, it cruises at part throttle around 12.3, 11.5 when im off throttle and 9.7 at WOT.

I haven't had a chance to do any worthwhile drives at highway speeds to know how it's affecting CHT's, which are in the upper 200's without the factory O2 (RICH) and low 300's with it.

I have a feeling that i'll need to tweak this setup to go a big leaner across the board, to get the throttle response im looking for in all gears/speeds. For now im leaving everything the way it is though, until I can put in fresh oil and swap out the fuel filter. (FF is new, but I had the tank totally empty for a little while, so there may be crud stirred up and making it's way through the system now.)
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:02 pm

airkooledchris wrote:I AM running my O2 Sensors now. One for the stock VW system and one for my dash mounted AF/M gauge.

I have a feeling that much uber rich AFM setup was masking a few vacuum leaks somewhere, as this engine does NOT like how rich it is anymore. What I mean by that is that without the factory O2 sensor connected, it's set to run at an almost constant 10.1 across the board unless im WOT - in which case it goes to 9.3

With the factory O2 sensor connected, it cruises at part throttle around 12.3, 11.5 when im off throttle and 9.7 at WOT.

I haven't had a chance to do any worthwhile drives at highway speeds to know how it's affecting CHT's, which are in the upper 200's without the factory O2 (RICH) and low 300's with it.

I have a feeling that i'll need to tweak this setup to go a big leaner across the board, to get the throttle response im looking for in all gears/speeds. For now im leaving everything the way it is though, until I can put in fresh oil and swap out the fuel filter. (FF is new, but I had the tank totally empty for a little while, so there may be crud stirred up and making it's way through the system now.)
I got totally screwed up with "defective" (supposedly there is a polarity in the harness) Dakota Digital harness that was treating me to 40* lower temps through most of the summer. Once I did it their way, I have suddenly been dealing with 380* - 420* range, which makes me get drawn to the rich like a damn moth. NO OTHER EVIDENCE suggests my engine is running hot. Oil cap has water in it. Oil itself looks fine. Valves are happy after 22,000 miles. I am going to take the damn gauge out, shut off the LM-1, and do a strictly intuitive mixture adjustment, then hook up and see where things are.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by airkooledchris » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:21 pm

and this brings us back to where some of this recently started, in that maybe those numbers don't necessarily mean you are running hot. Or hot enough to do damage anyway. It reminds me of my other favorite VW motor, the VR6, which happily ran hot all the time. Certainly there is a bad zone to run it in, but that number may be higher than anyone would ever want the liability of admitting.


Set the mixture using the force only. Am interested in knowing what the data thinks after you've just given the engine what it asks for.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:54 am

airkooledchris wrote:and this brings us back to where some of this recently started, in that maybe those numbers don't necessarily mean you are running hot. Or hot enough to do damage anyway. It reminds me of my other favorite VW motor, the VR6, which happily ran hot all the time. Certainly there is a bad zone to run it in, but that number may be higher than anyone would ever want the liability of admitting.


Set the mixture using the force only. Am interested in knowing what the data thinks after you've just given the engine what it asks for.
I am trying, God knows, to establish some *rules* about how the spring and the wiper interact with the fuel ratio. It is proving to be difficult.

You posted some very flat numbers, (little change between off and on-throttle.

I have been shutting off the fuel on overrun 22-37+ and diving down to the engine's happy place 10.6-7 at full throttle
(slowly climbing as engine leaves torque peak and goes to horsepower peak, 55 mph to 75 mph).
I think I caused this range with a tight spring. I like it except that there is a band of part throttle that heats up the CHTs.

So now I am loosenening a couple of cog teeth at a time to see if I get a flatter range. Frankly, I would like to see a less black tailpipe. I do not buy the doom and gloom of valve seats falling out above 400*. The only valve seats that fall out at 400* are valve seats that have been incorrectly installed or have endured a clearly unacceptable overheating episode. What am I supposed to conclude after thirty six years of driving air-cooled VWs through places that none of these engine guys have ever travelled more than once (not to mention for a million aggregate miles), and I have never pissed off a VW engine? Can I report that no temperature I have ever recorded has made a whit of difference to my engines? I say 420* in a late bus with 101 ft/lbs of torque is fine! if you have original valve seats! See? Once you factor in the variable quality of work being performed, it is all mushy all over again. I have never done Death Valley with Biff's Veedub Machine Shop heads . . . . :shaking:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Eureka! We've Done It . . .

Post by airkooledchris » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:35 pm

It sounds like we need to meet somewhere in the middle of the two. Im off for some late night test driving and will futz with the cog to go looser - and see if I can't get some leaner numbers off throttle.
1979 California Transporter

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