Starter Issue?

[Lanval]

I replaced the starter a month ago or so. Last week, I noticed the engine was turning over slow on occasion, but then it would start fine the next time.

Last Sunday I took the van to go to my brothers ~ started fine... got to the coffee spot and it wouldn't start.

Engine turns over, but in a couple of instances, just a lights and click. Smells plenty of gas, I can hear the pump run. So I'm wondering if there is a way to verify if the starter is the issue?

Best,

Mike

[RSorak 71Westy]

You must have not heard of the hot start relay....do a search.

[vdubyah73]

when I put my bus together several years ago i used a crusty rusty starter. had hot start issues. bought a rebuilt from napa, it lasted about 2 years. I never turned in the crusty rusty core. put the crusty one back in hot start issues were still there, of course, so i used a ford starter relay and thought all was good. loong highway trips the hot start would raise its ugly head. could always start it from underneath with a screw driver. fast forward to this summer and i would have hot start issues first start of the day!!?? the hotter the ambient temp the more likely it would not start. this is even with a cold engine. tried tapping solenoid on starter with hammer and it would start. hmmmm? bad starter solenoid on the starter? found a starter that would kick out but not spin. swapped solenoids and now my rusty crusty starter works every time. Wondering if some hot start issues are not in the starter motor but a sticky solenoid. the old solenoid wasn't very well sealed against moisture intrusion.

the crux of the biscuit may very well be your solenoid.

[Lanval]

I'll try tapping it. I guess I figured if it turned over at all, it was working correctly.

It's not a "hot start" issue. It's a non-start issue. I tried starting it the next day, after tow, and it didn't work. I know all about the "hot start" issue, but this isn't it ~ and I've never had that issue in my previous van or this one.

Would it also be wise to test the voltage? I've read that the 85s have a weaker system than the later vans... something to do with the little wire on the side spade...

Best,

Mike

[Gypsie]

dubya's explanation makes sense with your symptoms.

That solonoid wants to pass alot of juice to crank the engine. i.e. Use a little bit of juice through an ignition wire from the steering column to the starter to engage a magnetic switch that will close a circuit that allows alot of juice to flow directly from a bigol fat wire directly to the starter motor.

Bad electrical connections (corroded contacts etc...) in the innards may allow some juice to pass but not enough for good crank power. (slow crank with some non-crank moments)

the 'tap' help reveal if this is the prob. IIRC, Bentley has pix that may help with a dissasembly and refresh...

[Amskeptic]

Lanval, bridge the big nuts (hush, Gypsie) with an adjustable wrench opened just enough to contact the two. Does it spin the motor freely?
If no- starter may be suspect AFTER you have verified excellent electrical connections from battery to starter and grounds, too.
If yes, run the motor without engagement for two or three seconds. How well does it rev? Does it sound raspy or smooth? Does it heat up or stay cool?
Raspy slow nasty hot, starter no good.
Now hit the spade (with the wire pulled off) to the battery cable terminal. Does the starter now engage and turn over the engine? If yes, go start from the driver's seat. If no, replace solenoid or starter as a unit. Sorry, but "new starter " doesn't mean much these days. You have a warranty, yes? Just cash in that chip and replace it if it is covered, even if only to help you narrow down the symptoms.
By the way, failing cable-to-terminal connections at the battery et al. can be hidden. You need to look behind the insulation a little. If white crap is between strands, or if insulation is heat-blistered, replace.
Colin

[dingo]

as with any starter issues, the key is measuring 'volt drop' i.e. what is the voltage reading WHILE cranking the starter....from there you can trace it along either the pos or neg side of the starter circuit. It may well be the internal contacts in the starter, but that is only one of several possible places for leakage.

Also the hall-effect ignition does draw a fair amount of current....so check for existance of spark...

[Lanval]

Lanval, bridge the big nuts (hush, Gypsie) with an adjustable wrench opened just enough to contact the two. Does it spin the motor freely?
If no- starter may be suspect AFTER you have verified excellent electrical connections from battery to starter and grounds, too.
If yes, run the motor without engagement for two or three seconds. How well does it rev? Does it sound raspy or smooth? Does it heat up or stay cool?
Raspy slow nasty hot, starter no good.
Now hit the spade (with the wire pulled off) to the battery cable terminal. Does the starter now engage and turn over the engine? If yes, go start from the driver's seat. If no, replace solenoid or starter as a unit. Sorry, but "new starter " doesn't mean much these days. You have a warranty, yes? Just cash in that chip and replace it if it is covered, even if only to help you narrow down the symptoms.
By the way, failing cable-to-terminal connections at the battery et al. can be hidden. You need to look behind the insulation a little. If white crap is between strands, or if insulation is heat-blistered, replace.
Colin

I verified that there is 12.66 volts at the large wire on the starter. That is a .10 volt drop from the battery, measured at the battery as 12.76.

Colin, when you talk of "big nuts" I think you mean that there are two big nuts on the on the main shaft, correct? I recall that one went on first, with some kind of rubber spacer... that sound right?

I'll try it tomorrow morning and if I don't die, I'll report back here.

Mike

Mike

[Amskeptic]

Colin, when you talk of "big nuts" I think you mean that there are two big nuts on the on the main shaft, correct? I recall that one went on first, with some kind of rubber spacer... that sound right?

There are only two nuts to be found on the starter solenoid. One has the battery cable/alternator wire/main wire to the fusebox/wire to the heater blower, all trapped under the nut, the other simply has the braided cable going directly to the starter motor. You bridge them to actuate the motor only.

Be careful that you understand what you are bridging. We have a potential electrical disaster brewing elsewhere here, where wires got melted or something. You need to intuitively understand what we are doing here as opposed to blindly following directions.

We are testing the motor itself.
Then we test the solenoid's job, which is to push the starter gear into engagement with the flywheel and at the end of its push, connect the battery to the motor.
Colin

[Lanval]

Colin, when you talk of "big nuts" I think you mean that there are two big nuts on the on the main shaft, correct? I recall that one went on first, with some kind of rubber spacer... that sound right?

There are only two nuts to be found on the starter solenoid. One has the battery cable/alternator wire/main wire to the fusebox/wire to the heater blower, all trapped under the nut, the other simply has the braided cable going directly to the starter motor. You bridge them to actuate the motor only.

Be careful that you understand what you are bridging. We have a potential electrical disaster brewing elsewhere here, where wires got melted or something. You need to intuitively understand what we are doing here as opposed to blindly following directions.

We are testing the motor itself.
Then we test the solenoid's job, which is to push the starter gear into engagement with the flywheel and at the end of its push, connect the battery to the motor.
Colin

OK, for clarity's sake (I hope) I'm adding a picture from the replaced starter motor.



(I'm using this image for details/names: http://www.fwi.co.uk/assets/getAsset.as ... ID=3808349) Image of my starter with circle/arrow below for reference.

If I recall, there are two largish nuts that go on the shaft of the solenoid which are marked with a yellow circle in the image below.

There is a third wire which connects to a spade on the side of the solenoid (which appears to be the "solenoid feed tag; 12V from switch" on the diagram).

What I understood from the first set of instructions was:

"peel back the rubber cover of the wires (in the yellow circle) and bridge the two nuts that are under there"
I am to ignore the solenoid feed tag (marked with the yellow arrow) while testing this first connection.

If the motor doesn't run when bridging these two nuts:
1. Listen to motor turn ~ slow/raspy = suspect; fast/clear = probably good
2. Verify voltage and connections
3. re-check grounds
4. If 2 and 3 check out, replace starter

If the motor runs
1. Bridge 12v from battery to spade (marked with yellow arrow) with wire removed from spade
2. If motor starts, replace wire, try again from driver's seat
3. If no motor start, look at electrical from switch to starter
4. If motor start, drive happily

Mike

[dingo]

http://www.excelauto.com/online/Tech.d/strvdt.html

[Lanval]

http://www.excelauto.com/online/Tech.d/strvdt.html

Dingo,

Thanks, that's helpful. I need to find someone that can help me, maybe next weekend. Or, two weekends; since after that, Colin will be here.

I replaced the starter, and, no joy.

It runs much quicker/stronger most of the time, but slowly once in awhile too. The voltage looks good, though I didn't do the kind of check recommended by Dingo there. I did try the checks listed above on the old starter, and it didn't seem to work.

On the new starter, I tried shorting across from the 12v in to the spade, and it did turn over the engine. Didn't start though. So does that mean the "new" starter is also bad? How would I know...

No time/patience for this problem at this juncture. Many bad words spoken today.

Mike

[RSorak 71Westy]

All the starter does is spin the engine. If the engine spun the starter is ok.

[Amskeptic]

On the new starter, I tried shorting across from the 12v in to the spade, and it did turn over the engine. Didn't start though. So does that mean the "new" starter is also bad?

If you test the starter with the ignition off, the engine will not start.
If you test the starter with the ignition on, it *should* start, but may not.
As mentioned, the starter's job is solely to turn over the engine.
Colin

[Lanval]

I will say the starter must be OK. Now I'm thinking "fuel" since it smelled very gassy afterwards; I recently replaced the iffy firewall plastic piece with the metal replacement from TK on TS. Since I've messed with the gas, I'll check that to. Verify volume and squirtyness.

Next would be electrical... seems like I need someone to check this with? I'm wondering if the coil is dicey, or if there are other hidden electrical boogymen.

Mike