1971 Bus - Ignition Switch, Won't Start

[christian]

Hey Colin,

Just wanted to congratulate you on the new server....now the address makes sense.

Well here is my issue...

So the time has come...Spring Break..and my bus is down!

Reason why? Because the Battery (fixable) but more importantly the ignition switch.

Basically when I bought my bus (as you remember Colin) it was mickey moused to a push button switch. I dont know the reason why but i decided its a good time to investiage.

When i diagnosed the situation and pulled everything apart basically trashing the push button switch and connecting it back to the ignition switch...it did not work...

When I put the two hot wires together everything works. But as soon as i connect it to the ignition switch (which is very hard to take out of the steering column) it does not work...

What do i need to do Colin?
Do I replace the ignition switch? is it something other than the ignition switch?

Please Help! I want my turn key back!!!

[Amskeptic]

But as soon as i connect it to the ignition switch (which is very hard to take out of the steering column) it does not work...

Hey Christian,
I remember your immaculate bus well.
Sounds like ignition switch, but you do not have to tear the whole thing apart if you are willing to be creative.

Just for fun, check out the harness from the switch. It will disappear into the rat's nest of wiring and connectors under the dash near the fuse box.
Disconnect battery. Track every wire from the harness to its end point under the dash. Some go to the fuse box. If yours is a '71, one goes to the light switch. Most importantly, there might be a rectangular plastic connector that you want to check for the integrity of the spades leading into it, both ends of each wire. Make sure every wire is accounted-for and correctly installed. There are wiring diagrams at VintageBus.com

You can unbolt the column support from the bracket under the dash, there are four phillips screws, then rotate the support sideways to see the wires leading to the switch. Check for exposed wires, reconnect the battery and push the plastic end of the switch firmly towards the key, wiggle a little even, while trying to get ignition idiot lamps or start. Sometimes the switch merely gets loose where the plastic is held in by the little fold-over tabs. I tightened mine and got another 5 years-and-counting.
Colin
(say hi! to the fam)

[christian]

Thats just it. When I turn the key to the on position everything lights up but then went I do a final clockwise turn nothing happens.

Here is another scenerio:

My conclusion is its the ignition switch or a short..here is why...

When my bus was connected with a push button switch it I could start the car up fine without a problem.. so that eliminates anything connected wrong.. here was the procedure to startup the car:

I would get in the door put the key into the on position and push the button. The car would startup only in the on position. Here is the crazy thing...as soon as a turn the key a tad bit..everything would shut off which should not happen..if anything it should make a weird sound from the engine right? Here is another. Any stranger can just go in my car and hit the push button switch and the engine would wind up but never start....that sounds pretty obvious but why would it do that..Basically I dont even have to have a key in the ignition switch and it would turn..only way to start is having the key not only connected but in the on position.

This whole things throws me for a complete loop...

Im really confused...

[Amskeptic]

Thats just it. When I turn the key to the on position everything lights up but then went I do a final clockwise turn nothing happens.
I dont even have to have a key in the ignition switch and it would turn..only way to start is having the key not only connected but in the on position.

Christian, the current set-up in your bus apparently has divided the two functions that the ignition switch normally takes care of. One is to power up the coil and let the engine run. . . that is the "on" position. The other function is to turn over the engine, that is the "start" position. You currently have the ignition switch powering up the engine's coil and letting it run, but no means to turn over the engine except through the push button. . . the starter wiring is now completely independent of the ignition switch. Instead of always having the coil powered up "on" before you get to "start" which will turn over the engine with a powered up coil presto! it starts and runs, you can turn over the engine with the push button and the coil may or may not be powered, depending on whether or not you have the ignition switched on.
If you want to just use the key and start your engine you need voltage from the ignition switch start terminal to go down the wire that is currently taking orders only from the push button. Your ignition switch may not be giving power to the start wire in the start position. That is why someone rigged a push button (lazy) with independent voltage to the starter. It is a easy fix once you access the switch.
Colin

[christian]

Colin..

by accessing the switch do you mean completely taking it out of the column?....how do i do this... its really hard.

[Amskeptic]

Colin..

by accessing the switch do you mean completely taking it out of the column?....how do i do this... its really hard.

If you remove the 4 screws under the support bracket, you can pull back the whole steering wheel and rotate the housing with a bit of futzing and you will see the back of the switch where the wires go. I think you can remove the turn signal switch (let it dangle) and pull the ignition switch housing up enough to then be able to see the plastic end piece held in with little bent over tabs that loosen over time. You might have to remove the steering wheel (index its location on the steering shaft) to pull the housing up and clear of the bracket. Got a Bentley? You can follow their steps only as far as you need to go. You do NOT have to screw around with the steering lock. I wish I could jump in more right now, but once again, I am on the road. . . . . .

[christian]

Colin,

Where exactly are you located in the United States...

I think I need your help... I wanted to check out the ignition switch.. so i treid to remove the steering wheel.... white a puller... turns out its so jammed in there that the puller broke! Then again its from Harbor Freight. Anyways, I looked at the plastic piece. Everything looks ok... So I am still lost on what exactly to do. I understand how you said that it seems that there are two different scenerios on your bus... But how do I connect them together? I need the voltage from the iginition switch start terminal to go down the wire that is currently taking orders? Easy Fix indeed but what do I do? the plastic piece has all the wires connected. Still lost...

HELP!

BTW- I know you are pretty creative so do you know how to fix a broken/chipped steering wheel?? I heard of something called an Easten kit?

Thanks.

[Amskeptic]

Where exactly are you located in the United States...

I am exactly on Interstate 81 at the 317 mile marker in Winchester VA heading north at 72 mph (except right this minute I am in the lobby of a Super 8 )

I think I need your help... I need the voltage from the ignition switch start terminal to go down the wire that is currently taking orders?

I feel hobbled here on the road. I don't want to intermittantly lead you down the road to ruin.

Above all, do no harm. As a general suggestion, stop whatever it is you might be doing before you break something. This ability to stop before something breaks only comes with experience. Materials DO tell you when they are at the edge of breaking. You develop a knowledge base of different materials, ex. you know you can crank away on a steering pitman arm until the puller starts bending then hit the whole thing with a sledge (sideways never towards the box itself) and it will break loose. You know you cannot do that with a phenolic steering wheel.

The red wire to the switch is supposed to make contact with the striped red/black wire back to the starter in the "start" position. The switch may not be allowing current to pass through because it is loose or the contacts are crudded up. PO has set up a push button switch to take electricity from wherever he got it to the red/black wire. You can fix it when you get access to the switch. Do you have a Bentley?

[christian]

yes I do have a bentley....I was looking at the wiring diagram but it gets really complicated....

What page?
Why would someone install a push button? The only thing that would come to mind is something (either the ignition switch, etc) has gone bad...

Therefore I must remove the steering wheel in order to remove the ignition switch....

Am I right?

[Amskeptic]

yes I do have a bentley....I was looking at the wiring diagram but it gets really complicated....

What page?
Why would someone install a push button? The only thing that would come to mind is something (either the ignition switch, etc) has gone bad...

Therefore I must remove the steering wheel in order to remove the ignition switch....

Am I right?

Once you find the switch on the diagram, you will see that it is simple enough. 30 Red is supply from battery. 15 Black is wire that takes electricity to the coil in the "on" position. 50 Red/Black activates the starter. That's it. You'll see some helpful info on wire connectors which you can see under the dash. The ignition switch connector is what I am interested in. It should be missing the red/black leaving the connector. I hope it has the red/black going from the switch to the connector. Then we can diagnose without further disassembly.

[christian]

Colin..ok after finally having time to investigate my bus.. I located all the wires

Number 1 wire (first black yellow then to connecter then changes to red/black) goes directly the Light switch

Number 2 wire (the brown wire) goes to the door contact switch buzzer (Note: This is not connected right now)

Number 3 wire (the red/black from start to finish) goes to the 5 connector then dissappears into a tube along with some other wires..from which I can only assume it goes to the coil/battery.

Number 4 wire (solid red wire) suppose to go to fuse number 9 right?? Note: Currently this is not connected.

Number 5 wire (solid black wire) also goes to the fuse number 11

In investigating all this I noticed 2 things.

(1) The Number 4 solid red wire was connected directly to the battery (I conclude this because there is a wire coming from the bottom of the floorboard that hooked the push button up. This red wire was origninally wired to the push button unitl I disconnected it.

(2) The Number 1 wire and the Number 5 wire looked as if they were connected together with a blue wire. Basically when I traced these wires...at the first 5 connector I noticed a small Blue wire connected both of these wires together (kind of a jumper wire).


So what do you think is up with that??
1. Either the previous owner badly wanted a push start and I can only hope everything works after I connect it (doubtful)

2. Or just as you said something went wrong and the PO was too lazy to fix it so he just connected both the blk wire and red/wire together....

What do you think??

BTW: I need a new steering wheel bad...do you know anywhere to get one or do you have any idea how to fix it? Bondo???

[Amskeptic]

Pm me with your phone # and time to call on April 6th.
Colin

[christian]

uh oh...that cant be good...

[christian]

Colin,

Thanks so much for all your assistance. It turned out to be a bad iginition switch (electrical part). I went to my local VW store bought a new one, tested it, and everything is working fine. Just thought I would let you know that the little small hole you were referring to was actually a small small flat head screw that needed to be taken out in order to remove the electrical connector for the ignition.

Thanks again,

Christian

[Amskeptic]

It turned out to be a bad iginition switch (electrical part).

So the original starter solenoid wiring was intact through the harness all the way to the switch?
Now that you have suffered through this, would you recommend to a newbie that they rig a push button switch or get the original repaired correctly?
Colin