'71 Type 2 Engine knock before dying - FIXED! UPDATE 6-03-07

[jblair630]

Under the heading of “Don’t ever assume anything”.
Just got back from a lovely 3 week trip up and down the East Coast visiting friends and relatives. Left the bus at home during this time away and I think it got mad.
The day after we get back, I jump in the bus to go run a couple of errands and he runs great. The work that Colin did with me getting in the way has paid for itself a thousand times over in the sound of that purring engine. This morning I jump in to go to work and after a couple of miles there is a loud knocking sound coming from the engine. I immediately get off the road and into a parking lot before the motor shuts down. I try to start it again and only get the click-click of what sounds like the starter engaging but the flywheel doesn’t move. My lovely and very understanding wife drives me into work (its 5am and understandably she is not happy) and later I get back to the bus to see what I can do with it.
My wife, Z, has a way of diagnosing trouble that is pretty accurate and hard to believe unless you know her (I won’t get into it here) and she is telling me to look at wires that may be frayed as well as a leak of some sort. Sure enough there are a couple of wires that had come loose (the oil pressure for one) and after checking the dipstick there is very little oil at all, just a little at the very tip of the dipstick. Z runs to the store and gets some oil and when I put in the third quart it starts spewing out of the valve cover gasket like it wasn’t even there (my leak). I straighten out the gasket and put it back on. After a couple of tries the engine starts and we try to limp the bus back to the house. The engine is running pretty quiet when we start but after about a mile or two the knocking starts up again. I immediately pull over and shut it down. While I am trying to keep from getting hysterical, Z looks up the number for a tow truck and we get it towed home.
At this point I have not taken a hard look at the valves or anything else. I am hoping that any of you all who may have gone through something similar can give me an idea of what to look for and double check to make sure that I am taking care of any side issues that may have resulted from this. I am still not sure exactly what happened but as soon as I have more of a clue then I will update. Z has suggested the possibility of drive shaft or cam shaft gears being screwed (which scares the hell out of me). We’ll see.


Jeffrey

[Amskeptic]

after a couple of miles there is a loud knocking sound from the engine.

Did you check your oil idiot lamp the second you heard the sound? Did the oil lamp turn on with the gen lamp when you first started it? Had you checked your oil before even getting in the car after this three week tour of the east coast?

I immediately get off the road and into a parking lot before the motor shuts down.

Immediately? That is not immediate. That is an eternity to a suffering engine. The rules are, shut off the ignition instantly whilst depressing the clutch pedal, then figure out how to get off the road. Does/did your idiot lamp work?

I try to start it again and only get the click-click of what sounds like the starter engaging but the flywheel doesn’t move.

You cannot do that. I am sorry. The engine died of its own accord in the parking lot? That was a seizure due to loss of oil.

Sure enough there are a couple of wires that had come loose (the oil pressure for one)

So we might assume that your oil idiot lamp was not working at all when you first started it or it did not have a chance to warn you when the engine started knocking, and if you tried to run the engine not even a second after the oil pressure is lost, the engine is self-destructing as you pull into the parking lot.

and after checking the dipstick there is very little oil at all, just a little at the very tip of the dipstick. Z runs to the store and gets some oil and when I put in the third quart it starts spewing out of the valve cover gasket like it wasn’t even there (my leak).

It should never spew out a valve cover unless the engine is grossly overfilled. . . the sump is below pushrod level. (?)

After a couple of tries the engine starts and we try to limp the bus back to the house. The engine is running pretty quiet when we start but after about a mile or two the knocking starts up again. I immediately pull over and shut it down.

What was the behavior of the oil pressure light? What sort of conclusion did you reach as far as life-sustaining oil pressure? Was this a Pray And To Hell With It sort of drive home?
I am fricken hyperventilating here. The engine should not have been run with such horrid unknowns. My deepest condolences.
Colin

[zblair]

Did you check your oil idiot lamp the second you heard the sound? Did the oil lamp turn on with the gen lamp when you first started it?

YES

Had you checked your oil before even getting in the car after this three week tour of the east coast?

NO

I immediately get off the road and into a parking lot before the motor shuts down.

Immediately? That is not immediate. That is an eternity to a suffering engine. The rules are, shut off the ignition instantly whilst depressing the clutch pedal, then figure out how to get off the road. Does/did your idiot lamp work?

YES, the lamp worked. It flashed on like normal when starting the engine on any given day.

You cannot do that. I am sorry. The engine died of its own accord in the parking lot? That was a seizure due to loss of oil.

Understood. Z did tell me to wait for the wrecker which I ultimately did. Had Phred towed to the house.

So we might assume that your oil idiot lamp was not working at all when you first started it or it did not have a chance to warn you when the engine started knocking, and if you tried to run the engine not even a second after the oil pressure is lost, the engine is self-destructing as you pull into the parking lot.

previously acknowledged

and after checking the dipstick there is very little oil at all, just a little at the very tip of the dipstick. Z runs to the store and gets some oil and when I put in the third quart it starts spewing out of the valve cover gasket like it wasn’t even there (my leak).

It should never spew out a valve cover unless the engine is grossly overfilled. . . the sump is below pushrod level. (?)

This is where I am confused Colin. The symptoms you've described are those of no oil in the system at all. Adding 3 quarts of oil should not have grossly overfilled with the results you've stated.

In my understanding, the sump holds 3.5 quarts of oil. My assumption was the same as yours in that there was no oil in the system at all. How would this have reacted as if it were overfilled if there was no oil there when I added the 3 quarts?

What was the behavior of the oil pressure light? What sort of conclusion did you reach as far as life-sustaining oil pressure? Was this a Pray And To Hell With It sort of drive home?
I am fricken hyperventilating here. The engine should not have been run with such horrid unknowns. My deepest condolences.
Colin

The oil pressure light came on when the engine was started as previously stated. My conclusion was that there would be enough pressure for me to limp back home. I was wrong. The only known aside from what was mentioned was that the cork oil gasket cover was bent out of shape.

Where do I go from here? I am stunned, passed hyperventilating about 7 hrs ago.

Jeffrey

[Amskeptic]

Did you check your oil idiot lamp the second you heard the sound? Did the oil lamp turn on with the gen lamp when you first started it?

YES

Two questions here, I don't know which one is the yes.

and after checking the dipstick there is very little oil at all, just a little at the very tip of the dipstick. Z runs to the store and gets some oil and when I put in the third quart it starts spewing out of the valve cover gasket like it wasn’t even there (my leak).

It should never spew out a valve cover unless the engine is grossly overfilled. . . the sump is below pushrod level. (?)

This is where I am confused Colin. The symptoms you've described are those of no oil in the system at all. Adding 3 quarts of oil should not have grossly overfilled with the results you've stated.

Your sump takes 2.5 quarts total.

In my understanding, the sump holds 3.5 quarts of oil. My assumption was the same as yours in that there was no oil in the system at all. How would this have reacted as if it were overfilled if there was no oil there when I added the 3 quarts?

So you can't just add a set quantity of oil. You add, check, add, check in small enough increments to see what you lost and what you really need.

Where do I go from here? I am stunned, passed hyperventilating about 7 hrs ago.

Double-check compression and valve adjustments first.
Then check to make sure oil level is correct.
Start engine and look at oil lamp closely. It must turn right out at idle. We need to ascertain the integrity of the engine by sound. Is it quiet at idle? Will it accept revving gently? Do sounds come up cold? Warm? Under load? At high rpm only? Constant? Are the sounds knocking under load only? When you release the throttle or when you apply the throttle? Any nasty sounds, abort test. Does the oil light turn on as engine warms up? Does it stay on past idle? Test over the instant it does.
It is all about listening at this point. After letting the engine sit, pull strainer plate and look for chunks of aluminum or grey swirls in the bottom of the strainer plate. Lots of grey paste, tear down. Did the original knocking come up as a quick surprise? Was it because of no oil? Any oil spots where the car was parked while you were gone? PM me your phone # where I can reach you at 7:00PM EST.
Colin

[jblair630]

zblair wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
Did you check your oil idiot lamp the second you heard the sound? Did the oil lamp turn on with the gen lamp when you first started it?

YES

Two questions here, I don't know which one is the yes.

Did I check the idiot light when I heard the sound? I don't remember seeing it when I heard the sound. Did the oil lamp turn on at ignition? Yes.

This is where I am confused Colin. The symptoms you've described are those of no oil in the system at all. Adding 3 quarts of oil should not have grossly overfilled with the results you've stated.

Your sump takes 2.5 quarts total.

That explains the overfill. I had believed that the sump held about 3.5 quarts but I see from the post in Type 2 forum that I was mistaken about that. The pancakes take 3.7 and the uprights take 2.5. Its a wonder I wasn't spewing all over whenever I changed the oil.

So you can't just add a set quantity of oil. You add, check, add, check in small enough increments to see what you lost and what you really need.

I guess this will be the plan whenever I add oil in the future no matter what the circumstances.

Thank you for the diagnosis procedure. I am still a little freaked out but after talking with the tow truck driver I realized how lucky I was. He had already been to a couple of fatal accidents that morning and it was only just past rush hour.

[zblair]

Birdibus asked for a synopsis so here's a small one:

Hmmm... I still don't get it. Did you decide that the valve cover gasket was leaking while you were on vacation?

Yes, the valve cover gasket wasn't sealed right and leaked. Tip O' the iceberg though...

Taken from the top: The connection to the oil light switch was connected but did not work. First mistake: driving without checking the oil.
Once Jeffrey drove the bus (not knowing there wasn't any oil) Phred threw rod #4 and managed to flatten out the top edge of the cam
lobes. The case had been pounded HARD and the main bearings were scored.

The metal of the connecting rod had been subjected to such intense heat (bluing) that the metal would not tolerate any stress. Basically
anything that could go wrong due to lack of oil did go wrong. The picture here is of two sets of rod bearings. The top set are from No. 2;
not perfect but not too bad (according to J). The bottom two crescents are from rod bearing No. 4.

All of these are now replaced on the new short block.

[jblair630]

April 7 2007

Raining and 40 degrees outside but I’m working in a nice, warm garage. Colin should be here.
Its typical Austin weather for whenever he comes by. I put the left half of the case on the engine
stand which makes life a lot easier. I can get around to all sides and don’t have to worry about the
cylinder head studs getting in the way of working and being able to rotate the case ends up being
a huge help. Thank goodness for my darling wife. I wouldn’t have bought a stand for myself, I would
have just kept on using the trashed wooden door for a work bench.



I put in the oil relief and oil control valves. Those big slotted bolts are rough to work with but a little
ingenuity goes a long way. I used a beat up old chisel and a pair of vise grips to turn the bolts until
they seated down tight. Next I checked and put in the distributor drive shaft and that turned into a pain.
I have been using Tom Wilson’s book (along with Bentley) as a guide for the building stage and he shows
to line up the slot on the distributor drive shaft perpendicular with the case seam and on the flywheel side.
When I do that the rotor points to 2 o’clock instead of 5 o’clock like Wilson says. I can’t see anyway around
it and my rotor has always pointed to cylinder #1 when at TDC for #1 so I set it up this way anyway and
move on. I put the distributor in place and clamped it down loosely and checked to make sure that it would
rotate properly.

I put new seals on the main bearing studs. When I took the old ones off they were like little rings of stone
instead of rubber. I don’t know if that is a product of age or heat or what but it made me stop and wonder.
Greased up all the bearings and put the crankshaft in place and made sure the bearings were seated on
their pins. It took quite awhile to get the feel for when they were seated but in the long run it was worth
the effort. Next I greased up the camshaft bearings and put the camshaft in place. Made double and triple
sure that the mark on the camshaft gear was between the marks on the crankshaft gear.




Did a dry fit of the case halves and rotated the crankshaft. There was a little binding so took the halves
apart and found that one of the bearings had walked off its pin. Reseated it and dry fit again. Same problem.
WTF? After some cursing, I realized that the #2 bearings that I had put in were not the ones that matched the
case and crankshaft. I had mixed them up when I was cleaning stuff. Note to self: Always keep the stuff from
each engine with that engine and separate from everything else. I changed out the #2 bearings and dry fit and
Voila! perfect fit with no binding. Put sealant on the case and put the halves together. Put the nuts on the case
hardware and torqued to spec. Colin’s litany of finger tight, then snug then gradual tightening of each bolt in its
turn paid off. After each go around with increasing torque I checked the crank that to make sure it would move
smoothly and wasn’t binding in any way. Did the final torque all around and still no binding. WHEW!!



Next I did a dry fit on the flywheel and matched shims so that the end play measured .0039. Nicely within spec.
Put in the new oil seal and that pesky O-ring and put on the flywheel. Getting the 230 lbs of torque on the gland
nut was interesting but got a cheater bar and all but jumped up and down on it. Moved on to the oil screen and
cover plate. After giving it my all to get the proper torque for the gland nut, putting on those little crown nuts was
an adventure in restraint. Installed oil pump next and ran into a problem. The rivets on the new cam shaft stuck out
just a little farther than the ones on the old camshaft and so were hitting the back of the housing. Filing down the
place on the housing where it hit finally gave it enough clearance so that it wouldn’t bind up. I’m glad I go back and
check to make sure there is no problem with crankshaft rotation after completing each step. I would have been
screaming bloody murder if that had created a problem after putting the engine back in the bus and trying to start it
up. By now its after 6 and past quittin’ time. Didn’t get as much done today as I had expected but when it comes to
this rebuild, I’d rather be careful than fast. All in all a good day. Time for baseball and a beer. Or two. Guiness.

[Amskeptic]

Raining and 40 degrees outside. Colin should be here.

Oh yeah sure, be right there, but i am enjoying this cold soggy Rochester NY just fine. . . with no warm garage either.

I have been using Tom Wilson’s book and he shows
to line up the slot on the distributor drive shaft perpendicular with the case seam and on the flywheel side.
When I do that the rotor points to 2 o’clock instead of 5 o’clock like Wilson says.

Some distributors are like that, like 009s. Wing it and it will work out in the end. You have a vacuum advance, right? Also centrifugal?

I put new seals on the main bearing studs. the old ones were like little rings of stone instead of rubber.

Typical reaction to oil and heat. Those things both help prevent oil from migrating out of the case through the nuts, and may even serve as little vibration dampers.

After some cursing, I realized that the #2 bearings that I had put in were not the ones that matched the case and crankshaft.

Errr, explain?

Next I did a dry fit on the flywheel and matched shims so that the end play measured .0039. Nicely within spec.

Congratulations on your engine building. I love that sort of work. Is there an engine in Phred now getting you to work and back?
Colin

[jblair630]

I know I have been woefully derelict in my updating duties. I actually have several days of notes and pictures of the rebuild process that I need to put together in some coherent form and post.

For my sins, I have encountered a big problem. I actually got the engine back into the bus yesterday, got everything hooked up, did a static timing and cranked the engine (with sparkplugs out) until the oil light went out. Put the sparkplugs back in and tried to get the engine to turn over. No go.

When I was cranking to raise oil pressure, the engine turned over rather slowly (about 3 rwors per second) and I thought this was the result of the battery being low after sitting for 4 months. When I put the sparkplugs back in the engine would only crank about 1 rwor per second. Hmm...battery's dead thinks I. So I hooked up one of those portable emergency jump doohickeys and tried again. Same thing. OK, lets go all the way. Hooked up the jumper cables to Z's car and tried again. Still the same slow 1 rwor per second. I've jumped dozens of cars and Phred has been jumped (insert rude joke here) a few times before and by the time I got done I could have jumpstarted a dead rhinoceros. Still no change.

I have checked and double-checked my connections, static timing, fuel delivery, and everything else I can think of. My intuition tells me that its something to do with the way the starter and the flywheel are coming together. The starter was working just fine when I took the engine out. Maybe I need to take a look at that. Z's intuition (which I trust a lot more than my own) says that I have missed something simple but I can't for the life of me think of what it might be.

All ideas (crackpot, whimsical or otherwise) are encouraged. Once the engine is running then I will fulfill my penance of posting long, detailed notes regarding the rebuild and even include a few pictures as well.

71 type 2
1600 DP
34 PICT 3
SVDA
Stock innards

Thanks
Jeffrey

[Amskeptic]

the engine turned over rather slowly
My intuition tells me that its something to do with the way the starter and the flywheel are coming together.

This is mechanical drag if the starter is healthy and the battery is charged.
It is also a worrisome symptom. Please check how much resistance you have when rotating the engine with an adjustable wrench. New piston rings on aggressively honed cylinders can cause a pretty intense drag. . . so can too tight of an endplay!?!??!??? as can a crankshaft bearing that is not properly registered with its dowel. There should not be much resistance with the plugs out. If the starter is not making horrendous mesh noises, I doubt that the flywheel/starter interface is causing you this slow turn-over. The most unique cause of slow turn-over I happened across was an input shaft seizing in the pilot bearing. But this problem went away if you tried to start it in neutral with the clutch pushed in, because the input shaft is naturally "locked" to the crankshaft via the clutch. Double-check the alignment between the bell housing and engine, see that the parting line is perfectly closed between the bell housing and the crankcase all the way around.
Colin

[jblair630]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Please check how much resistance you have when rotating the engine with an adjustable wrench.

I can turn the crankshaft by using an adjustable wrench on the generator nut and letting the belt turn the crankshaft. I kept checking for binding etc. during every step of the rebuild process. I almost got caught a couple of times. Once, like you said, a bearing had walked off its dowel and I had get it reseated before I sealed up the case. Another time, the back of the oil pump housing was getting tickled by the rivets on the new camshaft. Had to grind the back of the housing a smidge until it cleared properly. I remember checking the endplay but I don't recall the number (its in my notes at home) but I remember it was within spec. That's why this has me puzzled, I can turn the crankshaft by hand pretty easily but not when I use the key.

I'll add the engine/bellhousing seam check and clutch to my list of things for this afternoon.

Jeffrey

[DjEep]

Uneducated guess...

Weak connection to the starter?

[Amskeptic]

I can turn the crankshaft by hand pretty easily but not when I use the key.

Breathe a sigh of relief then, young Jeff, push the car out on the street and push-start it down the hill, use 3rd gear and little dab-outs with the clutch to turn it over to get it running, then keep it at 10 mph in 1st as you head back to the driveway to conclude that critical critical critical initial break-in with your companion checking for oil leaks and you listening for noises and hot smells at 2,500-3,500 rpm for 20 minutes before you drain the oil and let it cool down and readjust the valves in the morning. Oh, and don't push start it unless you know it is going to fire up.
Colin

[Amskeptic]

OK I'll bite, why 3rd gear and not 1st?

Tink about it. If youse uze foist to get uppa big hill, da engine is da boss over da car. Sumpin 'bout gear ratios.
Ya can't let da car try to push da engine around in foist. Don't woik dat way. Youse just gonna lock up da tires, kapische?

So youse uze thoid when da car gotta push da engine, geddit? DO IT!
Itinerant Air-Cooled "Help" Desk at yoy soivice.

[jblair630]

Where I am at right now is that the engine will not start for its initial breakin. Diagnosis and adjustments are next. Been too busy to get to any of that and I am itchin to find out what's wrong

I will be writing up my notes and pictures and adding it to this thread (maybe later today) and then a final write up when its running and doing well.

Jeffrey