1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

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hambone
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1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:42 am

Hi, our Beetle started to squeal from the driver-front drum. I thought it was summer heat, but it didn't go away.
All of the other brakes are now adjusted properly - except for the driver-front. I turn the adjusters to the proper adjustment, go into the car and push the pedal a couple of times, and then the driver-front wheel is locked, almost unable to turn. I have the adjuster all the way down to the bottom now, still seizing.
The flex lines are about 5 years old. What the hell is going on? Is the wheel cylinder shot?

I also noticed that the reservoir was empty, causing air in the lines. There is no leakage that I was able to find anywhere in the system. After bleeding the brakes again, the reservoir is staying full.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I've never seen this before...
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sped372
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by sped372 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:47 am

Crack the bleeder once the wheel has locked up, if it frees up the hose has probably collapsed inside. 5 years might be all you get with some of these parts. :(
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
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hambone
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Unfortunately that didn't help. Weirdly though - it wasn't locked any more after about 15 minutes. But after hitting the brake pedal it seizes again.

You know, my gut says (a lot of things) wheel cylinder. In fact, it wouldn't bleed properly a few months back - dry.
Is it ok to just replace the one side that's troublesome? Brake shoes have plenty of life left, I'll probably just reuse them.
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hambone
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:54 pm

Looking at my log book, both the flex lines AND front wheel cylinders were replaced 5 years/25K miles ago. Oh great.

At least the symptoms are changing: I just went out to the garage, and the wheel is still almost frozen. I can't believe the car has been driving like this.

BTW there is liquid around the rear tunnel drain hole. I just can't tell if it's Portland or brake fluid. It is certainly DRY inside the car under the pedal cluster. I am afraid the 5 year old German MC has failed but don't want to start throwing money around.

FWIW I'm replacing the brake shoes all around, cheap insurance as Muir would say. About 1/8" left on the worst of the rears.

Hey another question, what is a reasonable service life on wheel cylinders?
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vwlover77
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by vwlover77 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:39 pm

If the master cylinder wasn't releasing pressure in the line, the other front wheel brake would be dragging too. You said opening the bleeder didn't help either, correct?

Sounds like the wheel cylinder is shot. If you remove the drum, can you slide the shoes back and forth, thereby making the pistons slide in the cylinder? If not, it's shot. No reason you can't replace just that one if you get the correct part.

I'm suspicious about your reservoir going dry and the liquid around the drain hole. Are you sure the brake line inside the tunnel is sound?
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:58 am

vwlover77 wrote:If the master cylinder wasn't releasing pressure in the line, the other front wheel brake would be dragging too. You said opening the bleeder didn't help either, correct?

Sounds like the wheel cylinder is shot. If you remove the drum, can you slide the shoes back and forth, thereby making the pistons slide in the cylinder? If not, it's shot. No reason you can't replace just that one if you get the correct part.

I'm suspicious about your reservoir going dry and the liquid around the drain hole. Are you sure the brake line inside the tunnel is sound?
Good points, Don! Resident brake expert you are becoming.

Hambone, you know that the brake line passes through the tunnel and can and will rust away if moisture is allowed to get in there.

Did you say that the wheel would not release when you cracked the bleeder, or the actual brake line compression fitting?
You have to do the actual brake line compression fitting if there is any question about the bleeder nipple being clogged.
I suspect a collapsed brake hose because of the 15 minute free-up . . .

Also, squealing is commonly due to glaze on the friction linings. Sneak a peek under the boots of the wheel cylinder. Do you see wetness? Did you have fuzzy damp dust around the wheel cylinder? Everything should be dry and dusty.

Don I recommend replacing wheel cylinders in pairs these days . . . the &@*!* parts suppliers are soo d#*&@ he** bent on "saving" material costs, that I do not doubt that they take away a little wheel cylinder diameter, or make the pistons a bit skinnier or any number of minor "improvements" that could lead to slewing. You know anyone with that problem?
Colin :blackeye:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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hambone
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:52 pm

Ok here's where I'm at. Both back cylinders had issues - one was 1/2 frozen, the other seeping. All new stuff on the back now. (I broke my CraftsmanTM breaker bar tightening the rear nuts...I hope they still honor that lifetime warranty.)
The front driver's cylinder was completely seized. 25k miles! Also the heat had destroyed the grease seal but somehow the grease stayed where it should. The hoses seem ok, I'm thinking that the frozen cylinder is the smoking gun - it was getting crusty and ever-so-slowly refusing to do it's job. I concur with the wisdom that a bad master cylinder would affect both wheels.
I did replace the long brake line to the rear at about the same time, so it's probably ok.
So how much life can we expect from modern cylinders? The one that failed was ATE, brand new 5 years ago. Granted, this is in brake hell with all this damned moisture. That must cause pitting, and eventual seizing.
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vwlover77
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by vwlover77 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:47 pm

VW was still recommending full brake fluid replacement every 2 years in 99 when I bought my New Beetle. I think that's the key to making all the components last.
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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hambone
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:29 pm

How is that done? Pump and bleed forever?
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vwlover77
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by vwlover77 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:15 am

Not forever, but long enough to completely purge the old fluid from the master cylinder, lines, and wheel cylinders. :-)

I made a handy-dandy tool to assist. The cap from a small bottle of brake fluid fits the brake fluid reservoir perfectly (at least on a late Bay). I drilled a hole in it and installed a hose fitting to connect to my air compressor. Fill the reservoir, put on the cap with the fitting, set the compressor regulator to around 10psi, and connect the hose. Presto! A pressurized system that can be easily bled by just opening the bleeder at each wheel. No pumping needed - just keep an eye on the brake fluid level!
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:04 pm

vwlover77 wrote:Not forever, but long enough to completely purge the old fluid from the master cylinder, lines, and wheel cylinders. :-)

I made a handy-dandy tool to assist. The cap from a small bottle of brake fluid fits the brake fluid reservoir perfectly (at least on a late Bay). I drilled a hole in it and installed a hose fitting to connect to my air compressor. Fill the reservoir, put on the cap with the fitting, set the compressor regulator to around 10psi, and connect the hose. Presto! A pressurized system that can be easily bled by just opening the bleeder at each wheel. No pumping needed - just keep an eye on the brake fluid level!
Excellent!
Um . . . can I borrow your compressor?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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hambone
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:46 pm

Guess what else, the master cylinder was going bad also, that's where all that fluid went. And a front bearing too.
What a mess...but it is back on the road today.
5 years in the Northwest was really hard on the brake system of this Bug. I was very surprised to see this.
In some cases, the brake fluid was black-gray. Yuck.
All told, about $250 in parts to replace most of the brake system in the car. Brake flushing seems like a good idea, especially with a daily-driver.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:12 am

hambone wrote:Guess what else, the master cylinder was going bad also, that's where all that fluid went. And a front bearing too.
What a mess...but it is back on the road today.
5 years in the Northwest was really hard on the brake system of this Bug. I was very surprised to see this.
In some cases, the brake fluid was black-gray. Yuck.
All told, about $250 in parts to replace most of the brake system in the car. Brake flushing seems like a good idea, especially with a daily-driver.
If you ever have to replace all rubber seal-equipped brake components at the same time, switch to fully synthetic brake fluid and say good-bye to hygroscopic brake fluid that causes all of this rampant annoyance.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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hambone
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Re: 1968 Beetle - Brake Adjustment Problem

Post by hambone » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:34 am

Hal recommended that too. Probably not a bad idea.
The brakes are still pretty spongy. I'm hoping that once the shoes burn in I'll be able to adjust them properly.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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