85 Vanagon Digijet

[Lanval]

Finally got the dizzy Monday, the nipple looked damaged. Called the GoWesty guys and they had the vendor drop ship another Next Day.

Have that one in hand, the same nipple as the first looks sketchy. I'm gonna try it and see if it works. Maybe the rebuild just looks sketchy.

L.

[Lanval]

I got to run a bit, but noticed an issue. It's near impossible to get the rotor to keep from spinning. After checking with a long allen wrench it's clear that the shaft of the distributor, though the same length as the original, is not long enough to do more than barely engage the inserts at the bottom.

If I insert the dizzy fully, the rotor will turn freely unless I push down on it.

Also, it was only able to run in what appears to be a reverse position. The rotor is pointing to towards the #3 cylinder at TDC (according to the marks on the flywheel).

When I ordered the dizzy, I also order a "shim kit" or something along these lines. Is that what the shim kit is for (lengthening the dizzy shaft)?

I should add, BTW, that the old dizzy has the same length shaft, so I'm not certain that is the problem, but need a bit O expertise.

Colin, O come forth ye wizard of VW...

L.

[Lanval]

Started wondering if Satchmo had it right. So it seems...

I took the Bentley out this am in the clear sun (it's clouding up to rain, now) and looked at the dizzy driveshaft. The small side is clearly pointing away from the water pump, which is the exact opposite of the Bentley spec.

This leads to two questions:
1. Is the drive removal tool expensive? Can it be made out of hardware parts?
2. Is it a bad/dangerous idea to remove it myself?

Best,

L

[satchmo]

Started wondering if Satchmo had it right. So it seems...

I took the Bentley out this am in the clear sun (it's clouding up to rain, now) and looked at the dizzy driveshaft. The small side is clearly pointing away from the water pump, which is the exact opposite of the Bentley spec.

This leads to two questions:
1. Is the drive removal tool expensive? Can it be made out of hardware parts?
2. Is it a bad/dangerous idea to remove it myself?

Best,

L

I'm choking back on the 'told you so' that is caught in my throat, but I'll try to spit out some ideas in spite of that.

1) The removal tool is a little expensive. I don't know of a home-made substitute. Maybe the FLAPS or a shop would loan you their tool. I have friend here who has one and I'm sure he would loan it to you if your time frame allowed.

2) It is a piece of cake to remove and replace the drive shaft with the correct removal tool. Really.

3) Just for fun, put the distributor in the only way it can go in. Push it way down so you know it is seated in there. You shouldn't be able to turn the rotor by hand if it's in all the way. I assume you already set the crank to TDC on #1, so look what direction the rotor is pointing once the dist. is in all the way (probably to #3, right?). Put #1 plug wire there, then go clockwise and finish the sequence of plug wires for the normal firing order (1,4,3,2). Now see how she runs.

Tim

[Lanval]

Heh, you should just say "I told you so" ~ that's what I would do.

In fact, I did have it set at #3, and it ran, but wouldn't idle. I'll try switching the wires tomorrow after resetting it to the #3 position.

Thanks ~ and, "you told me so!"

L.

[Lanval]

3) Just for fun, put the distributor in the only way it can go in. Push it way down so you know it is seated in there. You shouldn't be able to turn the rotor by hand if it's in all the way. I assume you already set the crank to TDC on #1, so look what direction the rotor is pointing once the dist. is in all the way (probably to #3, right?). Put #1 plug wire there, then go clockwise and finish the sequence of plug wires for the normal firing order (1,4,3,2). Now see how she runs.

Tim

I wonder, Tim ~ does the whole dist body need to go in facing the opposite direction? It would seem so, in order to adjust the timing correctly, no?

Oh well, by the time you read this, I will already have tried it.

Best,

L

[satchmo]

No, it doesn't. It is just the shaft, and hence, the rotor and plug wires that will be off. The body and the cap will still mount like normal.

I did this on an engine once and we got it to run like normal. But I didn't like the crossed wires and the confusion it caused, so eventually we got the removal tool and re-oriented the drive shaft to it's correct position.

Good luck. Let us know how this works out.

Tim

[Lanval]

Ok, so I wandered out to take another look at things.

The first thing on my mind was making sure I was really at TDC. I took the cover off of the passenger side rockers. set the engine to TDC and rocked it back and forth. Rockers/valves for cylinder 1 were moving in and out.

( just to make sure I'm on top of things ~ the cylinders are numbered 1 and 2 on the passenger side, #1 is towards the front of the car, #2 is towards the rear. 3 and 4 are on the driver's side, #3 toward the front of the car, #4 toward the rear. If I have this wrong, then you can skip to your post correcting me)

I then double checked the position of the dizzy drive shaft. It certainly appears to be set with the small side pointing away from the water pump (pointing right; WP is immediately to the left). This is backwards according to the Bentley, which expressly identifies the dizzy shaft as having the small side toward the water pump in either the 1.9 or 2.1.

So I seat my new distributor in, and put the rotor on. Whoa! It's pointing NOT at the #3 cylinder, but instead toward about 4pm on a clock ~ very close to where it should be...?!

I pulled it out and double-checked. Then I looked at the old distributor. Sure enough, they are different. The old distributor has the notch for the rotor opposite the direction of the small side. In a correctly placed dizzy shaft, this would make the rotor point towards the standard #1 position. So why isn't my new rotor pointing at #3?

Answer: The new rotor is set up with the notch pointing toward the same side as the small side of the dizzy shaft. Now, you're probably thinking (as I did) that the remanufacturer just messed up on that dizzy. Well, no problem, I have the first dizzy they sent me and I'll just go and get that one. But wait; the other dizzy is set up the same way! I am now confused as hell. According to these two remanufactured dizzys, the only way to get the rotor to point to #1 is to have the dizzy shaft pointing the wrong way.

OK, so I figure, maybe I'm just crazy, something has changed, and I just set it up as usual. Nope, with the rotor pointing towards #1 spark plug wire in the standard position, and the dizzy shaft reversed, it won't start.

So then I figure, what the hell... switch the wires around so cylinder #3 wire is where #1 should be. Continue the firing order around, and then test it. Starts right up and runs; same problems as before:

Engine runs very advanced; setting to appropriate timing position (5 deg ATDC) kills engine. After it warms up, it starts to hunt at idle.

So, I'm very, very confused. If Colin can hit me next week (doubtful) then maybe we can iron it out. If not, I'm probably going to have to take it to the shop, as there are too many variables for me to easily negotiate.

Yikes!

L.

[Amskeptic]

So, I'm very, very confused. If Colin can hit me next week (doubtful) then maybe we can iron it out.

No shop! Wednesday 8:30AM.

Please remember that if the rocker arms on #1 are moving, that is firing position for #3.

It really does not matter at all where the distributor body ends up as you install it or time it. The position of the distributor body is determined mainly for the benefit of the wire harnesses and overall packaging. You could conceivable install the distributor body in one of four positions and time it perfectly each time.

The rotor/distributor drive gear is what has to be properly choreographed to the camshaft/crankshaft position, i.e. valves closed piston at TDC for whichever spark plug wire happens to be over the rotor wherever the rotor happens to be under the distributor cap. You can change spark plug wires in the cap instead of moving the whole distributor body to get the correct wire over the rotor as you see fit as long as they maintain the 4-3-2-1 sequence.

There are simple immutable rules, over which you can play around and have great discretion to screw up in many ways.
Pastor Colin

[Lanval]

No shop! Wednesday 8:30AM.

You'll be leaving sooner than that unless my private student cancels. I have to be in North Irvine by 4:30pm. That Friday I get paid, so I'm unlikely to miss it.

Please remember that if the rocker arms on #1 are moving, that is firing position for #3.

In which case the dizzy shaft is probably NOT in backwards. I'll check it. Even so the replacement distributors are NOT set up correctly; why, I can't imagine.

It really does not matter at all where the distributor body ends up as you install it or time it. The position of the distributor body is determined mainly for the benefit of the wire harnesses and overall packaging. You could conceivable install the distributor body in one of four positions and time it perfectly each time.

The rotor/distributor drive gear is what has to be properly choreographed to the camshaft/crankshaft position, i.e. valves closed piston at TDC for whichever spark plug wire happens to be over the rotor wherever the rotor happens to be under the distributor cap. You can change spark plug wires in the cap instead of moving the whole distributor body to get the correct wire over the rotor as you see fit as long as they maintain the 4-3-2-1 sequence.

There are simple immutable rules, over which you can play around and have great discretion to screw up in many ways.
Pastor Colin

I will ignore the obvious parallels of the prophet who returns from the desert of temptation to lead his followers...

See you Wednesday AM.

Best,

L.

[Amskeptic]

So Michael, tell the fine reading audience here what we found . . . but like magazines, let's make them turn the page and go find it in the 2011 Itinerary . . . .
Colin

[Lanval]

shortly ~ I have to deal with an angry wife.

ML