Hard cold start

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asiab3
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by asiab3 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:27 am

Seriously? A bolt in the AAR hose? When did it become ok for people to disrespect mechanical design like that.... Anyway.. Glad you found it. It sounds like your CSV is working (quick "catch" when cold is pretty much all it does anyway) and your AAR is contributing now.

Nice job!
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

VWinVT
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:56 am

I know right!!! I was quite surprised to find the bolt, to say the least. Not sure why someone would put it there. I still may open the AAR a bit more, but I think I have it setup and working as it should.

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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:19 am

It has just occurred to me that I think I have an issue with the power supply to my fuel,pump. It runs when the key is in start mode...but does not shut off when the motor stalls. It is supposed to shut off when the motor stops running, when the wiper arm separates the fuel.pump 'switch' in the AFM, correct??

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asiab3
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by asiab3 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:34 pm

VWinVT wrote:It has just occurred to me that I think I have an issue with the power supply to my fuel,pump. It runs when the key is in start mode...but does not shut off when the motor stalls. It is supposed to shut off when the motor stops running, when the wiper arm separates the fuel.pump 'switch' in the AFM, correct??
You are correct. I do not know what to "suspect" at this point, but I would check the continuity of the wires/plugs for the "flap switch" in the AFM.* If the switch functions, I would check for issues with the double relay.

http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtop ... =50&t=5459

*Terminals 88a and 88z on the double relay are switched by the flap in the AFM.

Good thing you caught this. you don't need 30+ psi of fuel pressurizing your lines in the event of a stall or accident.

Happy hunting,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

VWinVT
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:55 pm

Thanks for the link and tip. I discovered by accident, I was adjusting the AFM stalled the motor and the pump kept on pumping...... Oh I wish people would just fix things properly instead of jury-rigging things...leaving others with mysteries to discover.....

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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:14 pm

asiab3 wrote:
VWinVT wrote:It has just occurred to me that I think I have an issue with the power supply to my fuel,pump. It runs when the key is in start mode...but does not shut off when the motor stalls. It is supposed to shut off when the motor stops running, when the wiper arm separates the fuel.pump 'switch' in the AFM, correct??
You are correct. I do not know what to "suspect" at this point, but I would check the continuity of the wires/plugs for the "flap switch" in the AFM.* If the switch functions, I would check for issues with the double relay.

http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtop ... =50&t=5459

*Terminals 88a and 88z on the double relay are switched by the flap in the AFM.

Good thing you caught this. you don't need 30+ psi of fuel pressurizing your lines in the event of a stall or accident.

Happy hunting,
Robbie
Just so I am clear. With the motor not running, I should be able to move the wiper arm CCW, allowing the fuel pump contacts to touch and the pump should run, yes? If this is how it is supposed to be, it has never worked properly in the 3 years I have had the van.... :pale:

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asiab3
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by asiab3 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:22 pm

VWinVT wrote:Just so I am clear. With the motor not running, I should be able to move the wiper arm CCW, allowing the fuel pump contacts to touch and the pump should run, yes? If this is how it is supposed to be, it has never worked properly in the 3 years I have had the van.... :pale:
I can not recall offhand which direction the flap/cog.wiper would move for testing. All you need to do is turn the key on and simulate airflow by flapping the flap with a pencil or screwdriver into the intake side of the AFM. This is how it is supposed to be. If you have pump with the key on, something is afoul. If you have no pump with key on and flap prod, something is afoul.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

VWinVT
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:13 am

OMG!!! I spend more time trying to get this GD thing to run, than I do driving it :angryfire: So, I checked the oil leak e petting to see bad pushrod seals under 3 &4... Good news it just the valve cover gasket. OK. Went through full line clamps, tightened and checked intakes and such for leaks all good. Fire it up and the damn thing idles properly...no gas. Go for a ride. Running a bit hotter. Go home try to richen it a tad. As I cannot move the big black cog independently of the wiper, when I move the cog the wiper physically moves with it...I decided to loosen the bolt/clamp at the base of the wiper arm, hoping to free the mechanism up. Got it just barely loose and nothing moved/loosened. I snugged it back up. NOW THE DAMN THING WONT RUN. :angryfire: It fires up great, no gas pedal. Runs for about 4 or 5 seconds then stalls. Giving it gas has no effect.
Seems the AFM was not functioning properly, did I just finish it off. Will the day ever come when this thing just works!?!?! :evil4:

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Re: Hard cold start

Post by SlowLane » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:49 am

VWinVT wrote:OMG!!! I spend more time trying to get this GD thing to run, than I do driving it
Welcome to aircooled VW ownership. What you are going through right now is known as a "rite of passage". It's similar to passing a kidney stone or six. It gets better. Eventually.
VWinVT wrote: So, I checked the oil leak e petting to see bad pushrod seals under 3 &4... Good news it just the valve cover gasket. OK. Went through full line clamps, tightened and checked intakes and such for leaks all good. Fire it up and the damn thing idles properly...no gas. Go for a ride. Running a bit hotter. Go home try to richen it a tad.
Good job on the oil leak and fuel clamps.

Diddling with the AFM on a system with an O2 sensor to achieve slightly richer or leaner mixtures ain't gonna work. The ECU will use the feedback from the O2 sensor to keep the mixture oscillating around stoichiometric under ALL conditions except for wide-open-throttle above 3000 RPM.
VWinVT wrote:As I cannot move the big black cog independently of the wiper, when I move the cog the wiper physically moves with it...I decided to loosen the bolt/clamp at the base of the wiper arm, hoping to free the mechanism up. Got it just barely loose and nothing moved/loosened. I snugged it back up. NOW THE DAMN THING WONT RUN. :angryfire: It fires up great, no gas pedal. Runs for about 4 or 5 seconds then stalls. Giving it gas has no effect.
Seems the AFM was not functioning properly, did I just finish it off. Will the day ever come when this thing just works!?!?! :evil4:
It does sound as if your AFM is well and truly boogered (technical term there). Can you post a close-up picture showing how the wiper and cog seem to be welded together?

As Colin has repeatedly stated, the wiper ought to move independently of the big black cog. All the big black cog does is apply tension to the flat coil spring so that the AFM vane resists the intake air flowing over it. The wiper tracks the position of the vane.

Did you happen to make a note of the original position of the cog so that you could put it back to where it was before you started fiddling with it?
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
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VWinVT
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:57 am

I hope I just passed the 5th kidney stone... I just checked the AFM fuel pump contacts. Key to on position, open AFM flap with pencil....NOTHING...no pump...nothing...hmmpff.
So, the AFM doesn't adjust properly and it now,won't run the fuel pump...sounds 'booogered' to me. Time for a new one?
Once I'm running again, can I simply unplug the O2 sensor and adjust the AFM to best effect?

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Re: Hard cold start

Post by Psucamper » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:03 pm

Jumper +12 volts to the + pump terminal and also be sure that there is a real ground. Disconnect wires currently attached and see if the pump runs.
Reduces the number of variables. Bob

VWinVT
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:38 pm

I know the pump runs as the motor will start every time and run for 4 or 5 seconds...so the issue is with the AFM functions

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:20 pm

VWinVT wrote:I know the pump runs as the motor will start every time and run for 4 or 5 seconds...so the issue is with the AFM functions
You appear to get knotted up easily. Settle down. This path to proper running requires patience and organized thought. Read the damn AFM article again.
STEP THREE

Adjust The Fuel Pump Shutoff
If you have moved the wiper (A)Static adjustment, you will have to check to make sure that the fuel pump shuts off with the engine off. Bend the contact arm (with a "backwrench" along the rod, so that you do not accidentally change the adjustment of the wiper) so that the little copper contacts are spread apart by a millimeter when the wiper is parked.
(see Diagram 2 green/red stripe)
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Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

VWinVT
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Re: Hard cold start

Post by VWinVT » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:49 pm

I do get knotted up....part of my charm!! :). The fuel pump contacts are separated when the motor is off and the AFM is parked. For the 3 years I have owned this van, the fuel pump always came on when the key was in The ON position. I always thought it was suposed to do that, I now know better. While checking the cold start, AAR and the ThermoTime, the pump suddenly stopped coming on when the key was in the ON position. The motor continued to start and run as it always did, except I did not hear the pump come on with the key in the ON position.
Now the motor will fire up and run for 3 seconds and die. Throttle has no effect. Is it possible that the fuel pump contact switch is faulty in the AFM?

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Re: Hard cold start

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:52 pm

VWinVT wrote:I do get knotted up....part of my charm!! :). The fuel pump contacts are separated when the ENGINE is off and the AFM is parked. For the 3 years I have owned this van, the fuel pump always came on when the key was in The ON position. I always thought it was supposed to do that, I now know better. While checking the cold start, AAR and the ThermoTime Switch, the pump suddenly stopped coming on when the key was in the ON position. The ENGINE continued to start and run as it always did, except I did not hear the pump come on with the key in the ON position.
Now the ENGINE will fire up and run for 3 seconds and die. Throttle has no effect. Is it possible that the fuel pump contact switch is faulty in the AFM?
Not likely, but please turn on ignition and move wiper manually. Pump should run. If it does, the contacts and connector on the AFM harness are fine. If pump refuses to run, remove the AFM connector and bridge 36 and 39 with a little jumper. Does this turn on fuel pump? If yes, look for any little fingers that may have been pushed back into the connector block. They should all be in a line and plug in to the AFM securely.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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