Odd starting issue
- nathan@el
- Getting Hooked!
- Location: Guilford, Vermont
- Status: Offline
Odd starting issue
My 1980 Vanagon has been having an odd starting issue for quite some time, but recently the problem has got significantly worse. When trying to start, it cranks over very, very slowly, almost as if the battery is dead/weak. The thing is, the battery is fine. With the vehicle off it's registering a reasonable 12.75 volts. I also brought the battery to the place of purchase to get it fully charged up again and tested, to no avail.
I have a new starter too, and a nice Bosch alternator that's about 4 years old. When running, I only get about 13.1 volts or so at the battery terminal, which seems kind of low, but should that even effect that starting at all? I've also checked the main ground strap and cleaned it up.
Could a problem with the points be causing this problem? Once the van starts, it runs and idles like a champ, and doesn't seem to have any running issues. The points are only about a year old, and were set up with Colin. I checked the distributor cap, rotor and the condition of the points themselves, and they're all still shiny and new looking (which they are--all only about a year old).
One more piece of information: Sometimes when cranking the key, the starter solenoid just clicks once and doesn't do anything, again, almost like the battery is dead. This has been very frustrating, and me and my fiance are supposed to be taking the Vanagon on our honeymoon in a week (getting married on the 11th! ), and I'm worried that it won't be reliable enough and our plans will be ruined.
In other news, we just moved to the Asheville, NC area from southern California 3 months ago, and are loving it!
I have a new starter too, and a nice Bosch alternator that's about 4 years old. When running, I only get about 13.1 volts or so at the battery terminal, which seems kind of low, but should that even effect that starting at all? I've also checked the main ground strap and cleaned it up.
Could a problem with the points be causing this problem? Once the van starts, it runs and idles like a champ, and doesn't seem to have any running issues. The points are only about a year old, and were set up with Colin. I checked the distributor cap, rotor and the condition of the points themselves, and they're all still shiny and new looking (which they are--all only about a year old).
One more piece of information: Sometimes when cranking the key, the starter solenoid just clicks once and doesn't do anything, again, almost like the battery is dead. This has been very frustrating, and me and my fiance are supposed to be taking the Vanagon on our honeymoon in a week (getting married on the 11th! ), and I'm worried that it won't be reliable enough and our plans will be ruined.
In other news, we just moved to the Asheville, NC area from southern California 3 months ago, and are loving it!
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
- RSorak 71Westy
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Memphis, TN
- Contact:
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Somewhere in the starter circuit, you have bad/poor connection. The bat voltage when running should be at least 14.....But if the bat is charged well this will have no effect on cranking. 12 Volts is not very much electrical pressure and the slightest amount of corrosion on a connection will prevent the large amount of current to flow, that the starter needs to spin fast.
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
- nathan@el
- Getting Hooked!
- Location: Guilford, Vermont
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Thanks Rick,
I was thinking maybe the problem was something along these lines. Do you have any idea where to check for connections? I've already checked the starter itself, and the wires there are new, lubricated, and look okay to me, at least.
I was thinking maybe the problem was something along these lines. Do you have any idea where to check for connections? I've already checked the starter itself, and the wires there are new, lubricated, and look okay to me, at least.
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
- RSorak 71Westy
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Memphis, TN
- Contact:
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
You say the battery is new so I can assume its terminals are shiney clean but have you cleaned the inside of the battery clamps?
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
- SlowLane
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Livermore, CA
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Also check the condition of the transaxle ground strap.
Try this experiment: mesure the voltage difference between the negative terminal of the battery and the engine while cranking the starter. It should be negligible (ie. millivolts). If it's more than half a volt, then you're losing voltage across the transaxle strap. You can use the same technique to isolate the other segments of the starter circuit (eg. battery positive terminal to starter, starter to engine, engine to chassis, negative battery terminal to chassis) to see where you are losing cranking voltage.
Try this experiment: mesure the voltage difference between the negative terminal of the battery and the engine while cranking the starter. It should be negligible (ie. millivolts). If it's more than half a volt, then you're losing voltage across the transaxle strap. You can use the same technique to isolate the other segments of the starter circuit (eg. battery positive terminal to starter, starter to engine, engine to chassis, negative battery terminal to chassis) to see where you are losing cranking voltage.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
- nathan@el
- Getting Hooked!
- Location: Guilford, Vermont
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
So, I tested the alternator output at the battery terminals with the van running, and I'm only getting around 13.5 volts, maybe 13.6 at best. I deem this unacceptable, no? Should be at least 14 volts, correct? I ordered a new voltage regulator from my local FLAPS to see if that helps with my problem. Charged the battery this morning with a battery charger (10 amp) for an hour, and she fired right up, so obviously the problem lies somewhere in this system. Does the forum agree with my analysis, or could there be further problems?
I checked the battery cables, and transaxle ground strap, and they look really good to me (the cables are pretty new, and I removed and cleaned the ground strap).
I checked the battery cables, and transaxle ground strap, and they look really good to me (the cables are pretty new, and I removed and cleaned the ground strap).
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
- RSorak 71Westy
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Memphis, TN
- Contact:
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Yes if it cranked fine after being on the charger, then it seems the problem was a low battery charge. Investigating the charging system is the next logical step.
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
These alternators can blow diodes and still charge, albeit poorly. They get blown in any number of ways, but inadvertent jumper cables, loose ground terminals on battery, a brief short along the blue wire or plug dangling in the engine compartment, can knock out an excitor diode which takes away about a sixth of the alternator output. I lived with a weak alternator in the Road Warrior for years, it would also drain the battery if the car sat for a week.RSorak 71Westy wrote:Yes if it cranked fine after being on the charger, then it seems the problem was a low battery charge. Investigating the charging system is the next logical step.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- SlowLane
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Livermore, CA
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Epiphanic moment there.Amskeptic wrote:knock out an excitor diode which takes away about a sixth of the alternator output.
Thanks, Colin
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
- nathan@el
- Getting Hooked!
- Location: Guilford, Vermont
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Thanks for the info Colin. I'm hoping that replacing the regulator will solve the problem, but I guess we'll find out soon enough. Out of curiosity, has anybody here used and had any luck with an adjustable voltage regulator, like this? http://www.davebarton.com/AdjustableVol ... lationTips
Seems like a great idea to me, especially with these older alternators that don't put out a lot of voltage, combined with modern batteries that apparently need more "oomph" from the alternator in order to stay fully charged.
Seems like a great idea to me, especially with these older alternators that don't put out a lot of voltage, combined with modern batteries that apparently need more "oomph" from the alternator in order to stay fully charged.
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
That looks like it would be helpful with an Optima battery. Try it. Report back. As the guy said, "don't use a claw hammer."nathan@el wrote:Thanks for the info Colin. I'm hoping that replacing the regulator will solve the problem, but I guess we'll find out soon enough. Out of curiosity, has anybody here used and had any luck with an adjustable voltage regulator, like this? http://www.davebarton.com/AdjustableVol ... lationTips
Seems like a great idea to me, especially with these older alternators that don't put out a lot of voltage, combined with modern batteries that apparently need more "oomph" from the alternator in order to stay fully charged.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- SlowLane
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Livermore, CA
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Hey, I know that guy! I bought a (non-disintegrating) Volvo 240 engine harness from him years ago. Looks like he's expanded his business quite a bit.nathan@el wrote: http://www.davebarton.com/AdjustableVol ... lationTips
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
- nathan@el
- Getting Hooked!
- Location: Guilford, Vermont
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Unfortunately I've already ordered the regular voltage regulator from FLAPS, which will be coming in tomorrow morning. If I had more time I would return it and try one of these variable voltage regulators, but I've gotta head off Wednesday morning to get married!That looks like it would be helpful with an Optima battery. Try it. Report back. As the guy said, "don't use a claw hammer."
In the future though I'll probably try one of the adjustable ones. It sounds like something that could be pretty useful for us VW folks with our older alternators that don't always put out a lot of charge. (Also, as a former owner of both a Volvo 245 [1979], and a Volvo 244 [1991], I feel like this guy deserves my support).
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
- nathan@el
- Getting Hooked!
- Location: Guilford, Vermont
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
New voltage regulator seems to have solved the problem. I'm now getting a healthy 14.2 volts of charge at idle, compared to the pathetic 13.5 volts I was getting before. That should, hopefully, be plenty of power to keep my battery charged, even with my stereo blasting and the headlights on.
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Odd starting issue
Glad to hear it. You should be a married man by the time you read this. Congratulations!!nathan@el wrote:New voltage regulator seems to have solved the problem. I'm now getting a healthy 14.2 volts of charge at idle, compared to the pathetic 13.5 volts I was getting before. That should, hopefully, be plenty of power to keep my battery charged, even with my stereo blasting and the headlights on.
Colin
(I do visit the American southeast)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles