Looking for a late bay

[Xelmon]

Hammy, Vista and Ruckman are your best bet for the minute technical differences.

Hm, late-bays are the way to go they say? It has to do with cruising speeds.
Mechanically the big difference is that earlies have 1.6L "upright" / Bug / type 1 engines.*
Lates have type 4 engines of differing sizes depending on the year, ranging from 1.7 - 2.0L, so they have more oomf either by RPM or displacement.

Functionality wise it's the same, it'll still get ya there. The difference is the speed.
As Colin posted in the main thread (Bus Shift Points), the apparent power won't change that much between type 1 and 4's, due to R&P ratios - the differential ratio.
As a result, earlier will be the typical slow VW in traffic, while lates will be keeping up with traffic... For the most part. Hill may still pose problems. :P

Mechanically, from what I've gathered over the years, a well built type 1 will last just as long as a type 4, and there is a standard list of parts that are costly to fix across the board.

Maintenance wise, well, they are somewhat fiddly creatures from hearing years of talk at the VW meetings. Still, a well done engine will be relatively easy to keep in check.**
Either way, whatever rig you are getting, it better have some kind of documentation on the engine work.



* Type 1's also have different bores depending on case. Stock is 1641cc, and there is also 1776cc, 1835cc, 1916cc, and up.
Difference? 1776 and 1835's are bored out from the 1641 cases. 1835's are to be avoided, as the cylinder wall gets very thin by that time.
1916's are an upsized case, so they run fine. Ask Vista, he just bought one recently, and it sounds great! :D

** The small print is that even if you have a bulletproof engine that "last forever", think ahead, and get a rebuild/replacement going.
At this time, type 1 engine rebuilds are basically $3000 max with a new case and everything.
Type 4's start at $3000, the heads alone make up $1000 of that. Either case, you are assembling it at home.
It's of little surprise that our Portland guru Tristessa ditched the notion of a type 4 and went water cooled, and did a conversion to a 2.0L VW inline 4.
Ran him a little more than $1000 due to lots of lucky finds, and being frugal.

[Bleyseng]

Front drum bakes with no vacuum assist, 1600 single port engine without doghouse oil cooler setup, early cot upper bunk, funk interior layout.....

late bays with the type 4's go 100k without any problems on a quality rebuild vs a type 1 which will be hard pressed to get anywhere near there esp if its bumped up in hp. They are slow but a type 4 1.7,1.8 and 2.0L cruise all day at 70 mph no problem if rebuilt correctly.
The Camper Special is just a modified 2.0L with a cam and heads with slightly bigger valves to run cooler and 95-100hp/120lbs of torque which is great for the hills.

[Kubelwagen]

Something to consider is to get one that isn't running, for less, and get your own rebuild in from the beginning. Might be worth it to get a good engine to start from.

[TrollFromDownBelow]

Hm, late-bays are the way to go they say? It has to do with cruising speeds.

Functionality wise it's the same, it'll still get ya there. The difference is the speed.

Mechanically, from what I've gathered over the years, a well built type 1 will last just as long as a type 4, and there is a standard list of parts that are costly to fix across the board.

Maintenance wise, well, they are somewhat fiddly creatures from hearing years of talk at the VW meetings.

That pretty much sums it up... in practical speak, a type 1 engine (early bay 68-71) has a comfortable hwy cruising speed of about 62mph in stock form. Late bays have a comfortable cruising speed of about 70mph at hwy speeds in stock form. Type 1 engines are considered to be a little easier to wrench on. If you decide on the type I route, 71's are considered the most desirable as they have power assist front disk brakes.

If you decide to go the 'speedy' type IV route, I'd say look at 73's and up ... 72's don't have the nifty engine access hatch...even when you don't use the access hatch for access, it does help shed a lot of light. :). I believe FI (fuel injection) was introduced in 75? A lot of folks find this desirable.

You've got a good war chest, and living in the PNW, you are in the mecca for VW buses. Biggest suggestion is to take your time...ask a lot of questions. Most important thing to look for is rust free.... and i'm not talking about rust covered with bondo and a new paint job rust free. Either virgin metal, or if it was rusted, new metal welded in.

Cheers,
Mike

[Xelmon]

@ Bleys input:
No vac assist drums aren't bad, you just have to account for braking distance.

Mmm... I'd believe that type 4's last longer. Ruck specifically said that type 4 cases are virtually indestructible at close to normal power output, and 90HP is not too out of reach. Type 1 cases on the other hand can be had new for ~$700, while type 4 cases are not being made.

Didn't realize that campers got a diff cam. Hm, figures. :)
On the subject of valves, luftvagon just posted his head temps. If they are really that low with equal power output, larger valves are the way to go.....


@ Kublers input:
.....if you find a good rig with out an engine. This could be especially tough at the condition / price point you're looking at, it will have a running engine. You could get lucky though!
That would almost be better than getting a complete rig, as then you know the exact story, as you simply cannot skimp on the engine - looking at Gypsie here. :3


@ Trolls input:
And those years bring up another subject, the transition years.
IIRC '72-'74 are a set of weird years. VW was tooling around at the time and it spawned year specific / rarer parts, such as the exhaust and the 5-rib transmission.

Of course if you make the leap to '75+, you have to worry about DEQ. Most of the time this shouldn't be a worry, as regs are pretty loose for old rigs like that. On the other hand, do not look into hopping it up... Poor Fancy Pants' "not passing DEQ due to hopped up cams, too much money into the build" story comes into mind.

And of course, FI. If it's setup right, it works great! If not, it's a hassle... Ask Kubelwagen, he could tell ya.

[Kubelwagen]

My fuel injection woes were/are steeped in my own ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed and then you have a nice fuel injected bus!

[Bleyseng]

Ah heck, you are in Seattle! Let's meet up and you can check out/drive my Westy. Its really too bad you missed the BCC VW show then as there were two for sale. Actually 3, but who wants a rusty lowered 70 Westy for $2500.

PM me your phone number

Geoff

[aarondonne]

Sweet, will do Geoff! Thanks.

I'm also a little concerned about a westy fitting into my garage - so I'll bring a tape measure with me. I read another post about a guy (can't remember who now) who had to let air out his tires to fit inside his garage - doesn't sound fun.

[Xelmon]

I read another post about a guy (can't remember who now) who had to let air out his tires to fit inside his garage - doesn't sound fun.

Dedicated, motivated! XD

If anything, that would be bothersome... Also, here: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/cto/3760108335.html

[Westy78]

I read another post about a guy (can't remember who now) who had to let air out his tires to fit inside his garage - doesn't sound fun.

Dedicated, motivated! XD

If anything, that would be bothersome... Also, here: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/cto/3760108335.html

Early bay.

[Xelmon]

I read another post about a guy (can't remember who now) who had to let air out his tires to fit inside his garage - doesn't sound fun.

Dedicated, motivated! XD
If anything, that would be bothersome... Also, here: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/cto/3760108335.html

Early bay.

... Why are earlies popping up all of a sudden!?

[chachi]

...

[TrollFromDownBelow]

Sweet, will do Geoff! Thanks.

I'm also a little concerned about a westy fitting into my garage - so I'll bring a tape measure with me. I read another post about a guy (can't remember who now) who had to let air out his tires to fit inside his garage - doesn't sound fun.

In my experience, if you have a modern 'roll-up' door (sectional kind) you are good. If you have the old solid one piece door...then you might have issues. Had a roll up door on my last house, no problems. New house which was built in the 50's has a solid metal door. In order to get it in the garage w/o scraping I have to have a passenger sit in the passenger seat as ballast to get it in.

If you do have a one piece, there's an easy solution ... take $2k from your budget and get a roll-up. :)

[Bleyseng]

Sweet, will do Geoff! Thanks.

I'm also a little concerned about a westy fitting into my garage - so I'll bring a tape measure with me. I read another post about a guy (can't remember who now) who had to let air out his tires to fit inside his garage - doesn't sound fun.

In my experience, if you have a modern 'roll-up' door (sectional kind) you are good. If you have the old solid one piece door...then you might have issues. Had a roll up door on my last house, no problems. New house which was built in the 50's has a solid metal door. In order to get it in the garage w/o scraping I have to have a passenger sit in the passenger seat as ballast to get it in.

If you do have a one piece, there's an easy solution ... take $2k from your budget and get a roll-up. :)

My garage has a 50's style aluminum one piece door and I squeeze the westy in with a inch top clearance. Depends on the door I think.

I have yet to drive a lowered bay but for sporty, tight cornering I drive the 914. Hands down way more fun to drive except in the rain as you just can't see if you are on the freeway with all the water from the SUV's.

[Mike Boell]

FYI,
Riviera pop top campers are taller than Westy pop tops.
Mike