Jimbear's '74 Hardtop Westy UPDATED

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jimbear
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Jimbear's '74 Hardtop Westy UPDATED

Post by jimbear » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:53 am

OK. I have been slowly working on getting my '74 engine back to stock air delivery and distributor. Finally got my fuel lines all replaced about a month ago, registered in RI and was ready to drive. Hit the road and used the bus for my daily driver for around a week. It was running awesome and I put around 250 miles on it both highway and city. On the way home from the grocery store about three weeks ago I drove over a slightly bumpy road and then up a short but steep hill and the bus started to run like crap. I got to the taco joint where I was headed and poked around in the back to see the right brake booster boot had slipped off. Placed it back where it belongs and it ran well. A few days later I was driving from the same grocery and up the same short hill and wouldn't you know it the bus starts to run like crap again, but this time the boot was on solid.

The symptoms: lack of power, backfiring from the tailpipe and it seems on occasion the carbs. Pretty much starts right up, but wants to die until warm. Once warm it will idle by itself with low idle (700ish) and intermittent mild pops from the tail pipe. When I give it gas (by hand) it hesitates briefly, then revs with some backfiring after I let off the gas and it heads back to idle. It is not a happy engine right now.

What I know and have done: fuel filter (placed before pump) is clean, dwell is happy at approx 46*, I was unable to check my timing as my light has decided to not work. I have looked for vacuum leaks and have replaced the hoses that connect the steel tubes (name?) between the two carbs. I inspected the new plug wires and all are connected. All electrical connections seem to be solid. I sprayed some gumout around the manifold gaskets and at the base of the carbs and did not detect any change in idle. Bear with me, I am trying to figure this out. Thanks in advance for your help.
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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jimbear
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by jimbear » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:59 am

FYI I replaced the short hoses connecting the balance tubes (?) to the manifold and carbs. The issue was still present and I started wondering about vac issues outside the engine bay. This idea was confirmed by another party on The Samba so I will be looking at the brake booster line today. Likewise I will be inspecting my points and resetting.
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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grandfatherjim
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by grandfatherjim » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:18 pm

Check the electric solenoids on the carbs; make sure they aren't loose. Air can get in around the threads causing lean conditions. This happened to me and took forever to track down. Maybe it was just the one in the idle circuit; I forget.
Jim

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Amskeptic
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:35 pm

jimbear wrote:OK.
up the same short hill and wouldn't you know it the bus starts to run like crap again, lack of power, backfiring from the tailpipe and it seems on occasion the carbs.
Classic solenoid connection problem. Track wires from coil +15 to each. Try to make the symptom occur while idling and wiggling wires. Sometimes the intermittent problems can be in between spade and coils inside of the cans. Any bent or mashed spades are warning indicators - do not bend back to straight.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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hambone
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by hambone » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:11 pm

I've had a condenser-wire ground out (loose plastic plug) causing similar issues. Make sure all is happy with your distributor, check timing and make sure it's advancing properly.
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jimbear
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by jimbear » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:28 pm

Two days ago...
The solenoid on the right carb was a tad loose so I tightened it. I then plugged the manifold port for the brake booster on the right carb and the engine did run a little smoother. I then took the hunt to the front and noticed right away that, with the engine running, the booster hose between the servo and the steel booster line running to the engine is cracked and hissing. I am hoping this is my issue. I got the tube off (about 12" long) and it is old and crusty. It is tapered out on each end and seems to have some sort of gasket/sleeve inside each end.

I suppose my first question will be, is this replaceable with some standard FLAPS bought vac line, or is this specific part still available?

I'll be looking into trying out a similar sized vac line I have handy to see if it works.

Yesterday...

Front tube replaced. Runs better, but still popping slightly when I let off the gas and/or downshift. Also, poor pick-up from stop. Once going though the power is stable to slightly sluggish. I'll be changing out the rear booster lines tomorrow hopefully. It appears they are all original. I'll keep you posted.

Today...

Rear booster lines replaced, problem not fixed; popping at idle and when driving, poor power. Question about the check valve... When I blow with the arrow it goes through fine. When I blow through the other direction there is a little blow-by. Should there be any going the other direction?
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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jimbear
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by jimbear » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:53 am

Amskeptic wrote:
jimbear wrote:OK.
up the same short hill and wouldn't you know it the bus starts to run like crap again, lack of power, backfiring from the tailpipe and it seems on occasion the carbs.
Classic solenoid connection problem. Track wires from coil +15 to each. Try to make the symptom occur while idling and wiggling wires. Sometimes the intermittent problems can be in between spade and coils inside of the cans. Any bent or mashed spades are warning indicators - do not bend back to straight.
Colin
Could you explain the +15 to each part? Thanks.
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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sped372
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by sped372 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:57 am

+15 is the positive terminal on the coil, that's just the standardized "name" for it... (ignore the "hot spark" bit in the diagram below). A bad (or flaky) connection between this terminal and a solenoid valve on the carb will cause troubles like you're describing.

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jimbear
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by jimbear » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:41 am

The following was posted several weeks ago on another site--

Well, I have been driving the bus for a week now and it would appear that I have fixed my issue...after how long? Really this issue has been dogging me for years, but life and time have intervened and kept me from getting to the root of the problem.

Last Wednesday I decided to do the following in a last ditch effort before taking the bus to the local air-cooled wrench:
~Take the air filter box and various parts off
~Inspect all vac lines and try the carb cleaner on gasket and vac line connection trick one last time (no vac leaks evident)
~Replace a plug that was placed over an outlet tube in the center of the balance pipe. I believe this ran to the charcoal canister? I think this was the issue. This was a 2" piece of cloth braided tube with a steel plug and all held together and in place by two metal clamps. This was the last of two vac-related lines that I had yet to replace. Honestly, I had looked at this (I do not know how many times) and never thought to replace it. The short piece of tube was cracking on the ends, but nothing that 'looked' too bad. But, I still think this was the issue. I started to feel good about my inspection and work when I fired up the bus, before putting the air-cleaner unit back, and I was able to rev the engine and it did not pop or hesitate.
~Put the air-cleaner unit back together and replaced the central idling air intake tube that was on there with some thicker rubber tubing and plastic 90* elbow joints. It is sort of bootlegged looking, but will be fine until I can source the stock pipe and rubber elbows.

After the above work I fired it up and low and behold it started smooth and immediately responded without issue on the back-and-forth-up-and-down- the-driveway test drive. I battened everything down, did one last visual inspection of the engine bay, and went for a drive...smooth as silk, mostly. There is a slight hesitation after shifting and there is a slight lack of will for the engine to get to cruising speed in 4th. I want to believe this is timing or carb adjustment related. I will be looking into this this weekend.

Since I got it going last week I have driven the bus everyday, mostly to the local park to run the dogs and to soccer games and practice for the kid. It is running awesome, pretty good power up hills and from a stop. Running around town provides almost little opportunity for 4th gear so I will be getting out and fine tuning this weekend.

The bright spot of this is two fold--I am driving with more confidence than I have had since I bought the bus six years ago! And on the other side, I have replaced most fuel lines (not behind the firewall) and all vac lines have been updated. I have also been through the engine very thoroughly with Colin and alone. I am ecstatic. Updates to come as I can now focus on the array of little updates and maintenance issues that I have not dealt with due to the psychological weight of the running issue.


Now for today:
THE BUS WILL NOT START.

I have been driving now for several weeks and all has seemed mostly well.

Yesterday I was running errands and came home. Shut it off and then several hours later went to start it to take the dogs to the park and it fired up weakly for a few seconds and then died. Subsequent attempts to start resulted in very brief attempts to run before it dies--bout 5 seconds at first and now maybe a second or two weak seconds. When I turn the engine over it sound normal except for it not wanting to start.

I have:
~Checked that it is getting gas--it is.
~Checked that it is getting spark--it is.
~Reset the points, inspected the cap and rotor, set the timing to 10*ATDC statically (it was at around 0* before I reset it)
~Checked all vacuum connections--all appear OK.
~Tightened the three solenoids on the carbs after checking that they worked (all there do) and discovering that one on the left carb was loose.
~Took one of the brake booster vac tube elbows off and plugged the hole just to see, no start.
~All electrical connections appear to be OK.

It was running good...just before it wasn't.

Since I got it running several weeks ago, at first he bus was running slightly off for awhile after I initially got it running; it needed goading to get it to high enough RPM's to shift and did not like to be in fourth. It seems to do OK in 1st-3rd, but was slightly underpowered. So I went at the timing. I set the idle to 900ish, set the timing to 10*ATDC at idle, and then went to set the idle at 28*BTDC at 3500rpm, it did not like 28*BTDC, but was much more comfortable with being closer to around 35*BTDC. So, that is where I left it. I test drove it and it seemed to do mostly fine. Kept driving, kept doing mostly fine. Kept driving locally with one 25 mile round tripper. It kept having slight issues with power and running slightly rough intermittently and this gopt progressively worse. I then went in and noticed that the right choke had lost one of its three screws and the choke unit was loose so I fabbed a quick spacer and got a screw in there and it started to run good again, best it had yet.

Next:
~I am going to fool around with the chokes as I have not set them.
~I am thinking maybe the problem could be carb related, float needle valve? But, wouldn't it start and run rough?

Any help would be appreciated.
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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Kubelwagen
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Re: '74 Westy UPDATE 4/27: Was running, now not again...no s

Post by Kubelwagen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:21 pm

Going up hill still the problem? Do you know if you're gas tank is clean?
Patience the 81 Adventurewagen

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Amskeptic
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Re: '74 Westy running issues

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:58 am

jimbear wrote:it did not like 28*BTDC, but was much more comfortable with being closer to around 35*BTDC.
issues with power and running slightly rough intermittently and this got progressively worse.

~I am going to fool around with the chokes as I have not set them.
~I am thinking maybe the problem could be carb related, float needle valve? But, wouldn't it start and run rough?

Any help would be appreciated.
This is wandering in the woods, lost.

You just plain ol CAN'T decide to change the timing because it seems to like it better.

We all already know that you can fake a VW engine to run "better" with more timing as you destroy it.
It is like meth or crack. You feel "sparkly" for a while then you die.

You have an issue. It may be a pesky vacuum leak. It may be a breaker point gap that has closed up unexpectedly even if you did adjust them three days ago. You have to be disciplined and organized in your search for causes.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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jimbear
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Re: '74 Westy UPDATE 4/27: Was running, now not again...no s

Post by jimbear » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:33 am

I am definitely trying to be disciplined as I go forward since the bus wouldn't start. I clearly made a mistake with the timing. And I know I have an issue. Any help with where to turn next would be appreciated.

I am going to pull the points and condenser and replace with a spares to see if that works.
If not...
I am going to pull the plugs and get a look at them and then I'll check the compression.

I am getting gas squirting into venturi so I know gas is getting into the carbs.

I see spark when I check for it from the coil. Could it be too weak and how would I check that?

It has been suggested that I spray the inside of the carbs with Gumout, let it sit, and then spray the inside with compressed air in an effort to clean/dislodge any junk that may be in there.

Any other ideas would be welcomed...
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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grandfatherjim
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Re: '74 Westy UPDATE 4/27: Was running, now not again...no s

Post by grandfatherjim » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:53 am

I have this gut feeling it's the condenser.

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Amskeptic
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Re: '74 Westy UPDATE 4/27: Was running, now not again...no s

Post by Amskeptic » Wed May 01, 2013 9:18 pm

grandfatherjim wrote:I have this gut feeling it's the condenser.
We just had a condensor issue in Miami. Terrible running and missing.

Jimbear, don't let me ninny you, but it is critical to have a plan.

I just did a diagnosis of a bad condensor in Miami. It was new. It was new crap. It was shiny new crap.
We zeroed in on the condensor when I observed the timing gun flashes go weird and stuttery at 2,500 rpm and the flashes would just cut out at idle then come back. Replace with a new Bosch condensor. Chin up. The final solution will be that much sweeter when it is your victory. Ask Renobdarb.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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jimbear
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Re: Jimbear's '74 Hardtop Westy UPDATED

Post by jimbear » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:26 am

Resurrecting this thread...

To start, I have resurrected the thread on The Samba for my bus, Ophelia, here. The update starts at the top of the page you are directed to.

The recent chain of events have also been recorded in my 2017 IAC visit thread here.

For lack of time and seeing that all info to this point can be gleaned from the above two links I will not repeat the above info. I will update here though.

That being said, I would welcome any feedback, suggestions, observations, etc. here, as in this thread.

:salute:
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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