µSquirt ( microSquirt ) powered Vanagon ramblings

Bus, Microbus, Transporter, Station Wagon, Vanagon, Camper, Pick-Up.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:01 am

Bleyseng wrote: Yes, I use the 75 mph as the cruiseallday mark too as the engine seems to like it the best, although Monique seems to think 80-85 mph is.
I go by feel and sense the engine seems to be pushing it when at 80-85mph as gas mileage drops off but there is no difference in oil and CHT temps.
The Laws of Physics apply here too. The Type 4 engine really felt the increase in stroke, it showed up in the car reviews of the day "the new 2.0 litre engine from Volkswagen really feels the lomp of those big pistons" South Africa's Car Review Magazine 1978, and was evident in the fact that VW made the decision to throw the earlier Porsche style high rpm horsepower for a lower rpm flatter torque curve. Even a beautifully balanced 2.0 cannot match the gorgeous high rpm possibilities with the 66mm 1700. I would like to compare the earlier Porsche 914 1.7 to the Porsche 914 2.0 as well. The earlier Porsche 914 1.7 achieved maximum horsepower at 4,900 rpm and had a 5,900 rpm redline. Most European manufacturers followed this recipe. BMW had a silky smooth 3.0 (maximum torque at 4,000 rpm, horsepower at 6,000 rpm) that I absolutely adored, but they just had to go the displacement route and wrecked the intrinsic balance between the crankshaft counterweights and the earlier smaller pistons. The 3.3 engines never felt as smooth. Then they dropped the torque peak to 2,700, and a redline that dropped almost a thousand rpm with the eta engines. Apparently Americans wanted off-the-line power and to hell with the Autobahn highway speeds. Made sense, but I miss the old built for rpm philosophy.
Bleyseng wrote: Also, most cars can't cruise at their redline as its just the max rpms not the maximum cruising speed.
No car. No car cruises at redline.
Bleyseng wrote: My westy can rev to 5500 rpms without any problem but I certainly wouldn't cruise there.
The flip side is my 914 which can and has cruised at 115 mph (advertised max speed) for extended periods without any problem and still got 30 mpg.
So yes, aerodynamics does play a role in the max speed which the car can be driven for extended periods of time.
Sure, any bus around will bang the 5,400 rpm rev limiter in 1st gear. On the level, any properly tuned bus can, again, easily find the redline in 3rd gear (that would be 60 mph for the Road Warrior). 4th gear we all find the drag meets horsepower, and that is as variable as the wind and the gradient. With a Raby engine, I would not even think of hammering that engine at 85 mph all day because you are basically asking a piece of art to kill itself pushing wind, what the hell fun is that? I would save that engine's performance for the lower gears where you can hear the music and feel the punch. 75 is a nice clip, 80 downhill occasionally to clear traffic, driving anything harder than that in a VW bus seems to me to be dick-sizing aggressive competitiveness where the driver is no longer enjoying the car, but serving ego needs.
Colin
(you are not telling me that the Porsche got 30 mpg @ 115 mph, rather it gets 30 mpg overall, no?)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:58 am

yep, I was going to Eastern Wash at 105-115 most of the way (it was late at night, I was late and no cops) and got 30 mpg.....Normally, it gets 28-34mpg...It flys along at 100mph all day long if you want it too kinda loafing along so I wish I had it when I drove the Autobahn! Yes, it has the right rated tires to go that fast.....but hits the wall at 120 mph indicated on the speedo.

The change to the 2.0L with the different rods and larger pistions threw off the balance of the 1700 engines, bus or 914/411. That's why the 66mm stroke 914 racing engines could rev to 8500 rpms all day long at the track.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by airkooledchris » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:57 am

sure, a top of the line rebuild might come close or surpass the original numbers, but roughly what percentage of bus motors on the road today can still withstand those sustained speeds/rpm's - without heating themselves to the point of permanent damage?

without a whole family of additional passengers and gear to go someplace, and the wind going in the right direction and not too many long/slow inclines - maaaybe I can pull off 70MPH for a while. but without spending 6 months and $6k or more painstakingly rebuilding the engine I have (which I think is one of the better ones out there right now) - my rule of thumb is drive the speed limit and no more, and sometimes less.

dyno charts and all that are great, but they only show what's technically possible and not whats probable. id be more inclined to see 5-10 busses in their current state put on a dyno to see what most of us are really driving around with. all we have currently is Raby data and original VW specs, neither of which 99% of the busses out there will live up to (and probably shouldn't be pushed to.)



to the original poster of this thread - I hope you got my reply PM about parts/etc. I have a ton of other 81 westy specific bits sitting around to (this weekend we cleaned house, you woudn't believe the stuff I saved)
also, when I still had mine, I was always going over this thread at TS: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=326567

this aircooled vanagon owner went all the way when building up his engine for the Vanagon, and you can probably get some valuable information from him when doing your own.
1979 California Transporter

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Bleyseng
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:14 pm

If the "rebuilt" engines have crappy head work not many. I go that fast because I got Ham inc heads that are done right and a Raby cam that cuts the CHT 's down.
I keep wanting to dyno my Westy and I will when I find the time.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by luftvagon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:16 pm

I ordered an engine from Adrian today. Hopefully the engine is as good as they say it is. I went with hydraulic lifters, and bigger valves, and no exchange. I want to eventually open this motor on my own, and try to understand why its making that noise. Couple of things I noticed, the fuel injection is very brittle.. the harness is starting to fall apart, and injectors will need cleaning. The rubber I installed several months ago (the rubber boots, the ys, etc) its already starting to crack.. I'd hate to do it, but may have to go with Weber Carb for simplicity sake.
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI with wasted spark ignition)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

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RSorak 71Westy
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:54 pm

I know Colin will say keep the FI and I tend to agree.

If you do the carb thing please go with dual carbs rather then the proven unsatisfactory single carb. Duals provides more power and has none of the problems of a unheated intake manifold .
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by luftvagon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:03 pm

I can keep the FI, it will just cost me more..

It could probably use one of these...

Image
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI with wasted spark ignition)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by airkooledchris » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:21 pm

just watch the classifieds, and post a wanted ad. I just got rid of a nice FI harness last year for that model for $35. heck, ping Scott at germansupply.com, he might still have it (that's who I sold it to) since it was for 'just in case someone needs one'

that said, using the stock FI shouldn't cost much more. if time is money it will cost less since tinkering with that awful Weber setup will be painful at best.

personally I just picked up a spare FI harness and am saving up to send it off to Kyle, since my current one has been slathered in some sort of red nail polish mixed with RTV by the PO.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by Gypsie » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:12 pm

Another vote for keeping the FI. Each type of machine will have it's own bugs to work out. If you can find another harness to have redone or have the time to send yours out, then do it. Though I like the send another one just to make sure you keep one that works, (yes that's a little paranoia sneaking in there. No sense not having the part you need cause it got lost or wasn't salvageable).

Dial in is a process that has similar constraints (how much fuel for how much air) and takes a few minutes grokking to get buth when you do you will be able to make adjustments by sound, touch and a vulcan mind meld with your engine.

Your ordered engine? Full longblock (with heads and all) or shortblock (no heads).

Spark? I like my pertronix though points and capacitor are a must in the carry along parts bin.

Hydros are not set and forget. They must be checked now and again.

I'm excited for you. This Go'n be fun.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by sailorkh » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:21 pm

luftvagon wrote:I ordered an engine from Adrian today. Hopefully the engine is as good as they say it is.
I bought a reconditioned engine from Adrian almost 2 years ago. After a trip to the Canadian border, 2 trips to Oregon, 2 trips to LA, a bunch of local camping and she hasn't missed a beat.

Can't say enough good things about Adrian, he's one of the good ones.
Kris
1971 Deluxe "Ole blue"
1978 Westfalia "Gretchen"
1966 Cal40 "Viva"

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Amskeptic
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:45 am

airkooledchris wrote:sure, a top of the line rebuild might come close or surpass the original numbers, but roughly what percentage of bus motors on the road today can still withstand those sustained speeds/rpm's - without heating themselves to the point of permanent damage?
Life is far easier in the present for these engines ... no more mandated lean mixtures.
BUT replacement parts can be dicey. My Volkswagen dealer supplied parts allowed me to get several 100,000 mile rebuilds in a row ... only in the 21st Century did I get mowed down by morons in machine shops twice in a row.

I don't even think about getting on it any more, it is clear that the good parts are getting hard to come by, and I am going to try to make that BobD engine break some kind of record for the longest non-rebuilt original engine in history or sumpin'. I do wish we owners would demand the best instead of the cheapest ...
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by hambone » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:31 am

Often "the best" is no such thing despite packaging and that chrome *bling* when you open the box. GERMANY (but made in China). I'd say a lot of crap has been foisted upon folks that really do want good quality. And some things ya just can't get, other than crap. Remember my 8k pressure plate failure? Brazil, the only option for late type1.
Let's hope that the Wizard has been discovered behind the curtain. Parts quality is just a symptom of a greater social ill.
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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by Bleyseng » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:29 am

The American Walmart mentality has driven this," Buy only the cheapest" forcing manufacturers to go to China for cheapcrap manufacturing. I strive to buy only the best parts when I can even if I can't afford it at the time because later I'll be buying it again to fix it right.
Americans in general have too much stuff...and only want more cheaper stuff...Read the posts about newbies complaining about part prices...
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by luftvagon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:47 pm

I don't shop at WalMart. The prices are high, but this (hobby) is a commodity. You don't have to be driving a 30 year old bus. You can always buy new. At the end of the day it does not really matter. Now expecting durability out of cheap parts is sometimes too much to ask. Cheap stuff does not necessarily mean its bad. Expensive stuff does not necessarily mean quality.

My contemplation came down to the fact I could be buying a new van, with less miles, (and less bling for that matter), for the price it would cost me to rebuild the motor. Instead, I opted for a cheaper (still pricey) alternative and went with a $2500 (delivered) motor that's almost good to go, and that will last another 30 years, hopefully. Simple economics.

I decided to keep restoring the van, since I already have it, and since I took time to get familiar with it. On top of that, I already spent a lot of cash on bling, including a $450 exhaust. And speaking of economics, I knew that I would have similar complaints about wboxer, and would be in the same boat trying to stuff a GTI into the engine bay.

This way, its status quo. I don't mind the lack of "power". As long as she gets there, has a good time camping, and gets me back safe -- we are all good in my book.
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI with wasted spark ignition)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

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Re: Contemplating [re]build

Post by luftvagon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:56 pm

Now, what about them BusDepot $37 injectors :)
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI with wasted spark ignition)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

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