Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED!!!

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renobdarb
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Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED!!!

Post by renobdarb » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:32 pm

Greetings... just acquired a 1977 Super Beetle in the best way possible - Free. Now just trying to get it running right!

The bug has been converted from FI to a Bocar 34 pict 3 carb (kind of a bummer, but can't complain with a free Beetle). Anyway, it starts right up when cold and seems to idle great, however it dies when it warms up a bit, maybe after about 2 minutes running.

I can still drive the car so long as I give it a little gas when coming to a stop, otherwise it dies. When driving, it seems to have a flat spot in all four gears, just after shifting.

The electric fuel pump is located in the engine compartment - a bad place, I know, so I plan on moving it to the proper location near the tank. Just wanted full disclosure in case that the fact the pump is "pulling" fuel instead of "pushing" it might have something to do with the problems I'm having.

I will admit that I haven't adjusted the valves yet (next step) nor have I adjusted the timing (because the engine won't stay idling).

Anyway, thanks in advance for your help!
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:30 pm

renobdarb wrote: Bocar 34 pict 3 dies when it warms up after 2 minutes running.

flat spot in all four gears, just after shifting.

haven't adjusted the valves yet
nor have I adjusted the timing
Long time no see. Ignition on, check for a good click at the idle cut-off solenoid when you remove and reinstall the wire. After a couple of minutes running, check (carefully) to see if the heat riser is warming up.
Also, is the preheater hose attached to the air filter inlet, and does it get down to the warm air coming off the right cylinder bank. This system was famously reliable and driveable in its oem iteration. Got photograph to show us all that is missing?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:51 am

Howdy, Colin! I've been perving around the site a bit but yes, it's been awhile since I've posted, mostly because my bus has been running sooooooooo well since your visit a year and a half ago and I haven't had any problems I couldn't take care of myself. Again, can't thank you enough for your time here as the knowledge alone was worth it!

Anyway, now I just got a hold of this nice little 1977 Super Beetle convertible. Getting to know a new engine has been a fun challenge - many things look familiar and others not so much, but the Bentley's been ordered. In the meantime, here's some photos and some responses to your comments...

Here's the beetle the day I brought it home...

Image


Next is a pic of the engine compartment. You told me to check to see if the heat riser is warming up, and I actually don't think the heat risers are present. Also don't know about the "preheater hose"...

Image


Here's a pic of the carb and distributor. I confirmed that there's a good click at the idle cut-off solenoid so that appears to be working. Also, pretty sure the advance and retard hoses are mixed up in this pic but would like confirmation on this.

Image


Here's the oil filler tube. It appears to be aftermarket and this little nipple doohickey seems to be for a breather hose, but no hose is present and I'm not sure where it should run to were I to hook one up...

Image


Here's the linkage for the throttle cable on the carb. This seems all wonky and doesn't look like it's hooked up properly:

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And here's a dandy. The fuel pump is INSIDE the engine compartment and wired to the coil. One of the first orders of business is to move this to the proper spot near the tank and hook up a safety relay. I did this in my bus so I'm pretty confident I can do it in this beetle...

Image


Finally, here's a pipe coming off the muffler that's just been bent over itself. Could this have been where the heat riser was hooked up? Could this be causing a vacuum leak?

Image


So there it is. So my main problem is that the Beetle seems to start right up and idle fine, but dies after 2-3 minutes. It'll start up again but won't idle; seems to just not want to idle when it's warm. It'll drive as long as I give it gas when putting the clutch in and coming to a stop. There's a flat spot when shifting through all four gears, but I need to get the thing idling right before addressing that.

Again, when I get the Bentley I'm going to do a tune-up of the valves, but I can't really adjust the timing if it won't idle.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help, Colin... hope all's well with you!

Cheers,
Brad
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:58 pm

renobdarb wrote:Howdy,
You told me to check to see if the heat riser is warming up, and I actually don't think the heat risers are present.
oil filler tube appears to be aftermarket and this little nipple doohickey seems to be for a breather hose, but no hose is present

Well, I don't know where to begin, but that you have been treated to some terrible home engineering.
That was a fuel injected engine originally, and it did not need the heat riser that this carburetor retrofit *sorely needs*. It did not need the air-preheater that this carburetor sorely needs. It also had its own breather set up that had a receiver for the oil breather. If you had a proper air filter for a carbureted beetle, we would, likewise, have a correct receiver for the breather hose coming from the correct breather.
We probably could have fixed that fuel injection for nickels. Since you have a Solex facsimile carburetor, you can find a 1974 Beetle air filter and a 1974 Beetle intake manifold with heat riser, and it would necessitate a 1974 Beetle exhaust system to mate up with the heat riser.
Integrated Engineering . . . don't leave home without it.
Colin :cyclopsani:

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:15 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Well, I don't know where to begin, but that you have been treated to some terrible home engineering.
This was pretty evident when I got it home, however my unfamiliarity with this setup limited my ability to evaluate the extent. I do have a little experience with this brand of home engineering (i.e., horrible) with my bus, and fortunately I was able to work through it pretty well. Even more fortunate, this beetle was free, so I'm starting at a big phat $0 when it comes to cost, so there's certainly some wiggle room here.
Amskeptic wrote:That was a fuel injected engine originally, and it did not need the heat riser that this carburetor retrofit *sorely needs*. It did not need the air-preheater that this carburetor sorely needs. It also had its own breather set up that had a receiver for the oil breather. If you had a proper air filter for a carbureted beetle, we would, likewise, have a correct receiver for the breather hose coming from the correct breather.
We probably could have fixed that fuel injection for nickels. Since you have a Solex facsimile carburetor, you can find a 1974 Beetle air filter and a 1974 Beetle intake manifold with heat riser, and it would necessitate a 1974 Beetle exhaust system to mate up with the heat riser.
All this being said, what would you say would be the best course of action at this point? Re-retro-fitting the carb back to FI (the wiring seems to be present), or staying the course with the carb? For the latter, I'm assuming the parts list would include: heat riser, air preheater, air filter, intake manifold and exhaust system (not sure what's entirely involved w/exhaust system), and what else?

Whadda ya think?
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 am

renobdarb wrote: All this being said, what would you say would be the best course of action at this point? Re-retro-fitting the carb back to FI (the wiring seems to be present), or staying the course with the carb? For the latter, I'm assuming the parts list would include: heat riser, air preheater, air filter, intake manifold and exhaust system (not sure what's entirely involved w/exhaust system), and what else?

Whadda ya think?
Can you do a little rummaging to see if you have the double relay and ECU?
This is a judgment call on your end. A reliable properly equipped carbureted Beetle is a lovely little companion. So is a FI Beetle when running well. I am very re-seduced by the simplicity of this 1970 stock-all-systems-present carbureted bus I am currently driving. It is ridiculously reliable and happy.
Same could be said for the BobD who you met. :compress:
BUT . . . parts availability for the carbureted option with the carbureted exhaust system will be better.
You'd have to go for the 1973 set-up, as I believe the '74 had a ridiculous dual heat riser deal.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:49 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Can you do a little rummaging to see if you have the double relay and ECU?
I'll take a look when I get home... I thought I may have seen the double relay kicking around way in the back; not sure about the ECU. Where would that have been? Don't have the Bentley yet but it might be sitting in the mail box...
Amskeptic wrote:This is a judgment call on your end. A reliable properly equipped carbureted Beetle is a lovely little companion. So is a FI Beetle when running well. I am very re-seduced by the simplicity of this 1970 stock-all-systems-present carbureted bus I am currently driving. It is ridiculously reliable and happy.
Same could be said for the BobD who you met. :compress:
BUT . . . parts availability for the carbureted option with the carbureted exhaust system will be better.
You'd have to go for the 1973 set-up, as I believe the '74 had a ridiculous dual heat riser deal.
Colin
Really loved the BobD and hope to see it again someday... :thumbleft:

All this being said, I think I'm leaning toward staying the course with the carb. I like the simplicity of it as well, and given that parts will be a little easier to come by it might be a better course of action.

Is this the '74 "dual heat riser deal" you were talking about?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... ?id=815548

...and what is the advantages/disadvantages of this riser over the '73?

More broadly, what is the compatibility of the 72-74 exhaust systems? I.e., is the heat riser the only thing that's different, or are other components in the '74 exhaust system different from 72-73? I suppose what I'm getting at is, if I move ahead with swapping out the exhaust system, can I mix and match exhaust parts from the years 72-74? I.e., will the '74 heat riser be compatible with a '73 exhaust system? Further, are any of the stock '77 exhaust parts currently present my Beetle compatible w/the 72-74 system? I'd like to use what parts I have now if I can.

Onward...
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:58 pm

renobdarb wrote:will the '74 heat riser be compatible with a '73 exhaust system?
No. '74 was a one-year-only deal. Muffler had to have dual ports for dual heat-riser. That stupid dual heat-riser was to try to meet increasingly stringent emissions regulations that demanded that our air-cooled engines get clean after cold start as soon as possible. This caused too much heat once fully warm.

If you find the ECU and double relay, and any other FI parts, then think about the FI for better reliability and driveability and economy and even power IF . . . IF . . . IF the exhaust system is in good condition!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:36 am

Amskeptic wrote:
renobdarb wrote:If you find the ECU and double relay, and any other FI parts, then think about the FI for better reliability and driveability and economy and even power IF . . . IF . . . IF the exhaust system is in good condition!
Colin
Okay dokay... so it appears the ECU and not one, but TWO double relays are present (the mounted black double relay may be a replacement for the silver one I found loose below it):

Image


And here's a pair of wires that are loose in the rear luggage compartment (the ECU and double relay are just off to the left in this photo). Not sure where these went to... maybe speaker wires???

Image


Here's a loose wire under the back seat (comes out of the top-left of the photo)...

Image


And since you asked about the condition of the exhaust system, here's a peek at the left and right sides...

Image

Image


So while the ECU, double relay and FI wiring harness seem to be present, is there really way to test them to see if they're functional without hooking up the entire system?

While the existing exhaust system appears to be in descent shape, I may still convert it to the '73 system and keep the carb. I think doing so may keep my overall costs down, as I could probably sell the '77 exhaust parts, whereas I will have to find and purchase all of the remaining FI components.

It could just be a "six of one, half-dozen of the other" deal at this point as to whether to keep the carb or go back to FI... your thoughts, Colin?

Cheers,
Brad

P.S. - The ultimate goal of this project is to get it running and take it down to Phoenix so my brother and his wife can drive it around in the desert - Winters and LOTS of snow in the Tetons aren't really compatible with a convertible Beetle with poor heat, and I think it would be a disservice to this car to have it in a garage for 8 months out of the year!
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:39 am

renobdarb wrote: It could just be a "six of one, half-dozen of the other" deal at this point as to whether to keep the carb or go back to FI... your thoughts, Colin?
Cheers,
Brad

P.S. - The ultimate goal of this project is to get it running and take it down to Phoenix so my brother and his wife can drive it around in the desert -
I can visit Phoenix. It is a toss-up, if they are into modern driveability, FI wins. If they are into investment value, FI wins . . .
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:05 pm

Amskeptic wrote:...if they are into modern driveability, FI wins. If they are into investment value, FI wins . . .
Colin
Actually, I don't think they're really into either. They're just stoked at the prospect of a free Beetle.

I found a pretty good list on TheSamba of what's needed to make a conversion from FI to a carb:
1. Muffler. The FI muffler doesn't have the heat risers necessary for use with a single carb. New gaskets and hardware are required as well.

2. Heater boxes. The FI heater boxes are not compatible with a carb-style muffler, the flanges where the two connect are completely different. New gaskets and hardware are required as well.

3. Rear engine tin. The FI rear engine tin doesn't have the cutouts for the heat risers.

4. Sled tins. The sled tins that protect the pushrod tubes from debris, and direct hot engine air over the thermostat and towards the rear. The FI sled tins are too "deep" and they prevent the heater boxes from going on.

5. Electric fuel pump, 3.5 psi.

6. Fuel pump relay. The relay will cut power to the fuel pump if the engine stalls, like in a crash.

7. Intake manifold. FI and carb intake manifold are completely different.

8. Carb.

9. Air Cleaner.

10. Carb spacer.

11. Distributor?

12. Spark plugs. They are a different plug for carb and FI. Get the correct plugs if you want the engine to run right.
Does this sound about right? If you can think of anything else, please add.

I couldn't find a parts list for Fuel Injection... know where I can find one? I'd like to see what I'm in for and try and get a ballpark on a cost comparison for either route.

Cheers,
Brad
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:33 pm

renobdarb wrote:If you can think of anything else, please add.
FI Beetle heads have smaller exhaust valves. Not important at this time, but it has been known to occur that a sleepy machine shop with an equally sleepy machinist might accidentally install FI Beetle exhaust valves in a nice carbureted set of heads. Just sayin'.

Are you comfortable with wiring up a safety circuit for the fuel pump if you go carbureted?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:00 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Are you comfortable with wiring up a safety circuit for the fuel pump if you go carbureted?
This I've done before, on the Blue Bus, and it started right up. In fact, I think this will be one of the easiest parts, at least for me...

I'll let you know which direction I choose to go, and how it goes from there..........
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:27 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Are you comfortable with wiring up a safety circuit for the fuel pump if you go carbureted?
Colin
Just did this yesterday and it went swimmingly. Started right up. Of course, it still doesn't idle after it warms up...

Could the fact that the improper exhaust system for a carb is still present be causing this idling issue?
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:07 pm

renobdarb wrote:
still doesn't idle after it warms up...
improper exhaust system be causing this idling issue?

Nopers . . . your idle circuit is not working correctly.
Have you pulled solenoid and cleaned opening and plunger and tested for retraction?
Have you unscrewed pilot jet and cleaned orifice and jet?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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