Gibson Raided- who's next to be Gestapo'd by your friendly

[steve74baywin]

Now that I have a few more minutes I would like to take the time to reply to your reply to me a bit more.

Usually, knowingly buying stuff that is not legal is illegal. Did Gibson know the wood was not legal to buy? If so, then they're definitely busted. If not, they're still busted, because in general: ignorance of the law is not proof against prosecution.

When I speak as I do on this issue, I am challenging the law and it's worthiness. I think that ignorance of the law phrase only comes into play in a society that has made a whole bunch of laws above and beyond the protection of rights. It is also probably a phrase promoted by those rich elites that have written most of the laws. It is very easy to be ignorant of a law when laws are written as often as a bird shits.

If wood is a core component of your business, it is your job to ensure you're abiding by the rules. Plenty of other options, that aren't problematic. Gibson is probably going to take it in the pants on this, and rightly so.

That there eliminates any discussion as to whether the law is just or valid. I do not think this thread was started so we could say "look, see, a law was broken, and if you break it, you will pay, good, great, jolly jolly". No, I think this thread was started to discuss if we think this is a good thing to be happening.

Know and follow the law of the people.

Nah, not from a country that is breaking so many of Natures Laws.

I like this better from Dr Martin Luther King

"There are just laws and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all... One who breaks an unjust law must do it openly, lovingly...I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."

As an aside Steve, asserting that it's OK to break the laws of other countries, just because it's not against the law here? Not very respectful of the rights of other people...

I did no such thing. I did not assert that.
Your comment would apply or be correct if Gibson guitars was in Africa, did the crime in Africa, and got arrested in Africa and I said "we are a sovereign nation, and shouldn't be forced to abide by another countries laws". But they are here in this country. It is a crime in Africa, let Africa arrest whomever broke the law of Africa while in Africa.

[ruckman101]

So If I build myself an island and declare it a new nation, don't enact a law outlawing trading in ivory, then it's perfectly dandy to buy up as much as possible. Sure it's illegal in the rest of the world, but not on my little Islandia, so no worries. Of course I can't sell any of this ivory, or products made of it, to anyone other than other Islandians.

The fed's first raid of Gibson, still unresolved, was over concerns of illegally importing endangered wood, but this second one is different, despite what the CEO claims, and concerns violation of Indian labor law.

"The press release says the U.S. Department of Justice is claiming that the wood in question violates an Indian law that requires the wood to be finished by Indian workers. It also points out that the raid was not supported by the Indian government."

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/310962

neal

[RussellK]

There are International laws that both countries agree to enforce. But that is really beyond the point. It's illegal to import the wood here. No matter what happens in the other country, in our country we've determined the wood is endangered and we don't want to contribute to its disappearance. The wood was described as the equivalent to "blood diamonds" Do you understand that descriptor? It's used to describe the degree of violence and corruption people are willing to commit to obtain this wood. So yes the law is worthy. Good people look beyond their borders to see how their behavior affects the world. Sure. Sometimes we aren't very good at it, sometimes we are extraordinary. So sorry Steve, that aspiring young Jimmy Page will have to rip his riffs with an inferior wood.

[steve74baywin]

So If I build myself an island and declare it a new nation, don't enact a law outlawing trading in ivory, then it's perfectly dandy to buy up as much as possible. Sure it's illegal in the rest of the world, but not on my little Islandia, so no worries. Of course I can't sell any of this ivory, or products made of it, to anyone other than other Islandians.

Yes, sorta, if things were my way. I think you pointed out that no one else can buy or sell it in the world. So if you did buy it from some one, then that person would be subjected to the penalties that his country has about selling or trading Ivory. You on your island could buy it.

The fed's first raid of Gibson, still unresolved, was over concerns of illegally importing endangered wood, but this second one is different, despite what the CEO claims, and concerns violation of Indian labor law.
"The press release says the U.S. Department of Justice is claiming that the wood in question violates an Indian law that requires the wood to be finished by Indian workers. It also points out that the raid was not supported by the Indian government."

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/310962

neal

I read that article you posted.
I need to look into that part of it more. What is an "Indian Law". Is it a law in that country of Africa? I need to look into that further to see which way to comment.

I thought this was interesting from the bottom of that article you posted.

In 2009, more than a dozen agents with automatic weapons invaded the Gibson factory in Nashville. The Government seized guitars and a substantial amount of ebony fingerboard blanks from Madagascar. To date, 1 year and 9 months later, criminal charges have NOT been filed, yet the Government still holds Gibson’s property. Gibson has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government and these materials, which have been filed in federal court,

show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated. Gibson is attempting to have its property returned in a civil proceeding that is pending in federal court

.


Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/3 ... z1Wd5sas1T

Yeah, sorta backs something I said in the Raw Milk thread, it is false to believe the courts are fair and we get a fair honest chance.

[Lanval]

Now that I have a few more minutes I would like to take the time to reply to your reply to me a bit more.

Usually, knowingly buying stuff that is not legal is illegal. Did Gibson know the wood was not legal to buy? If so, then they're definitely busted. If not, they're still busted, because in general: ignorance of the law is not proof against prosecution.

When I speak as I do on this issue, I am challenging the law and it's worthiness. I think that ignorance of the law phrase only comes into play in a society that has made a whole bunch of laws above and beyond the protection of rights. It is also probably a phrase promoted by those rich elites that have written most of the laws. It is very easy to be ignorant of a law when laws are written as often as a bird shits.

If wood is a core component of your business, it is your job to ensure you're abiding by the rules. Plenty of other options, that aren't problematic. Gibson is probably going to take it in the pants on this, and rightly so.

That there eliminates any discussion as to whether the law is just or valid. I do not think this thread was started so we could say "look, see, a law was broken, and if you break it, you will pay, good, great, jolly jolly". No, I think this thread was started to discuss if we think this is a good thing to be happening.

Know and follow the law of the people.

Nah, not from a country that is breaking so many of Natures Laws.

I like this better from Dr Martin Luther King

"There are just laws and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all... One who breaks an unjust law must do it openly, lovingly...I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."

As an aside Steve, asserting that it's OK to break the laws of other countries, just because it's not against the law here? Not very respectful of the rights of other people...

I did no such thing. I did not assert that.
Your comment would apply or be correct if Gibson guitars was in Africa, did the crime in Africa, and got arrested in Africa and I said "we are a sovereign nation, and shouldn't be forced to abide by another countries laws". But they are here in this country. It is a crime in Africa, let Africa arrest whomever broke the law of Africa while in Africa.

The lack of logic here is stunning. You argue in circles.

Mike

[ruckman101]

Indian as in the country of India, where the wood was grown and exported from.

Now about your well. What happens when your neighbor leases their land to a resource extraction company who begin fracking for natural gas?


neal

[steve74baywin]

There are International laws that both countries agree to enforce. But that is really beyond the point. It's illegal to import the wood here. No matter what happens in the other country, in our country we've determined the wood is endangered and we don't want to contribute to its disappearance.

Well, you should know my thoughts on these things. I don't agree with those laws.
I guess we can agree to disagree.

The wood was described as the equivalent to "blood diamonds"
It's used to describe the degree of violence and corruption people are willing to commit to obtain this wood. So yes the law is worthy. Good people look beyond their borders to see how their behavior affects the world. Sure. Sometimes we aren't very good at it, sometimes we are extraordinary.

This all goes or gets very deep, and it can all go back to me saying the same stuff I always say. I wonder how bad it would be without the laws? Did the laws in some ways make it like "blood diamonds"? In my world view of things countries like England has been messing with Africa for 500+ years, raping and stealing people, diamonds, etc, etc. Cecil Rhodes got rich with diamonds from Africa, I think it was Africa.

Yeah, it all goes back to my basics. If that country thinks they need those laws, fine, let them have them. If some of the stuff gets out still and gets over here. I say we do nothing as a government. If people find this cause worthy, then let them not by the guitars, let people expose Gibson. But we don't need laws and enforcement on things from across the ocean. Can't believe half the info from and about this country, let alone info from or about another country.
Really, I think people get all too worried and worked up over trying to control everyone else and the whole world.
But sorry, I think you've heard that before.

[steve74baywin]

Now that I have a few more minutes I would like to take the time to reply to your reply to me a bit more.

Usually, knowingly buying stuff that is not legal is illegal. Did Gibson know the wood was not legal to buy? If so, then they're definitely busted. If not, they're still busted, because in general: ignorance of the law is not proof against prosecution.

When I speak as I do on this issue, I am challenging the law and it's worthiness. I think that ignorance of the law phrase only comes into play in a society that has made a whole bunch of laws above and beyond the protection of rights. It is also probably a phrase promoted by those rich elites that have written most of the laws. It is very easy to be ignorant of a law when laws are written as often as a bird shits.

If wood is a core component of your business, it is your job to ensure you're abiding by the rules. Plenty of other options, that aren't problematic. Gibson is probably going to take it in the pants on this, and rightly so.

That there eliminates any discussion as to whether the law is just or valid. I do not think this thread was started so we could say "look, see, a law was broken, and if you break it, you will pay, good, great, jolly jolly". No, I think this thread was started to discuss if we think this is a good thing to be happening.

Know and follow the law of the people.

Nah, not from a country that is breaking so many of Natures Laws.

I like this better from Dr Martin Luther King

"There are just laws and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all... One who breaks an unjust law must do it openly, lovingly...I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."

As an aside Steve, asserting that it's OK to break the laws of other countries, just because it's not against the law here? Not very respectful of the rights of other people...

I did no such thing. I did not assert that.
Your comment would apply or be correct if Gibson guitars was in Africa, did the crime in Africa, and got arrested in Africa and I said "we are a sovereign nation, and shouldn't be forced to abide by another countries laws". But they are here in this country. It is a crime in Africa, let Africa arrest whomever broke the law of Africa while in Africa.

The lack of logic here is stunning. You argue in circles.

Mike

Once again, show me, explain it, discuss.
I thought your comment saying I was asserting that was very odd and illogical, but I refrained many times from saying something like that, instead I spent quite a few minutes explaining how I thought it was wrong. In fact I explained it two times.

[steve74baywin]

Indian as in the country of India, where the wood was grown and exported from.

Now about your well. What happens when your neighbor leases their land to a resource extraction company who begin fracking for natural gas?


neal

Well if it is a law of Indian, let them enforce the law on whomever broke the law.
That simple.

About my well, if they are hindering my water, then that is a case where the gov gets involved.
Any or most Libertarians will tell you that. They can't mess up my water supply or my land.
And, like before when we spoke, we wouldn't have these millions of laws and lawyers, corporations wouldn't have more rights than people, we wouldn't need to decipher all the laws in court, so it would be easier to find them guilty and they would have to stop.

[Elwood]

"Ebony and Ivory live together in perfect harmony"

Not so much anymore eh?

Please keep this thread in a little more, no, make that a lot more harmony guys. You are sounding invious of others knowledge or opinions.

Ive had antique Ivory jewelery questioned and then returned. And had the pleasure of playing on keys, now forbidden.

I certainly understand the need to protect those resources and believe Steve does also. Side by Side

Love, Barb

[ruckman101]

"About my well, if they are hindering my water, then that is a case where the gov gets involved.
Any or most Libertarians will tell you that. They can't mess up my water supply or my land."

Wouldn't your neighbor then sue you for the profits he has lost because you messed with his ability to use his land in what he felt was his right? It's been a growing trend by corporations, to sue over profits they could have made if it weren't for those pesky environmental laws. The world is far from black and white.

I wouldn't have been able to produce this video if it weren't for laws enforced by the threat of consequences, because there would be no more old growth redwood groves.

http://vimeo.com/28414953


neal

[steve74baywin]

"Ebony and Ivory live together in perfect harmony"

Not so much anymore eh?

Please keep this thread in a little more, no, make that a lot more harmony guys. You are sounding invious of others knowledge or opinions.

Ive had antique Ivory jewelery questioned and then returned. And had the pleasure of playing on keys, now forbidden.

I certainly understand the need to protect those resources and believe Steve does also. Side by Side

Love, Barb

Wow, I had to do some searching. I thought you were getting at something with that phrase "Ebony and Ivory live together in perfect harmony".

That is from a song

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord, Why Don't We?
We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone,
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?
[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/paul+mccar ... 05526.html ]
Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony
Ebony, Ivory, Ooh

We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone,
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?

Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony

That is neat, a song, that mentions Ivory, fits what you were trying to tell us.
I don't know if I'm making too much of it or not, but that is pretty wild? odd?


But yes, I do understand the need to protect things.
I just don't like the means.
I'd prefer people take responsibility for themselves, and then make decisions.
It's not like all these laws and all this violence actually stops this stuff from happening.
So if a few people still used these things, (of course they still do now anyhow), but if there was no law and some people still did it, well, ya know, it's not the end of the world. As fas as I knew any man that is alive, is also going to die. The world has been going on for ages, I just don't think we need so many laws and so much violence for our lives now, when it a bit of time it really ain't going to matter to us.

[JLT]

Usually, knowingly buying stuff that is not legal is illegal. Did Gibson know the wood was not legal to buy? If so, then they're definitely busted. If not, they're still busted, because in general: ignorance of the law is not proof against prosecution.

And if they didn't know that the wood was illegal to buy, then they're astonishingly stupid.

I've been a member of the Guild of American Luthiers for some time now, and their quarterly magazine has articles on this all the time. It is true that exotic hardwood trade is very much like "blood diamond" trade, with people's lives in jeopardy if they don't knuckle under to the smugglers.

I don't know the merits of the case against Gibson, not being privy to that information. I'm sure it will all come out in the trial, if it ever gets to trial. But, yes, the illegal importation of exotic, endangered hardwoods is a serious problem and responsible luthiers and their suppliers generally do their best to see that their wood (and the ivory that's used for some parts) is legit.

One more thing: the use of "Gestapo" in the thread title is inflammatory, to say the least. This is about due process under the law; Gibson will have its day in court. The Gestapo was all about evading due process, and keeping things out of courts entirely. And if we're questioning the validity of those laws, remember that the Gestapo considered all laws as encumbrances, and felt that they were above those laws.

[steve74baywin]

"About my well, if they are hindering my water, then that is a case where the gov gets involved.
Any or most Libertarians will tell you that. They can't mess up my water supply or my land."

Wouldn't your neighbor then sue you for the profits he has lost because you messed with his ability to use his land in what he felt was his right? It's been a growing trend by corporations, to sue over profits they could have made if it weren't for those pesky environmental laws. The world is far from black and white.

I wouldn't have been able to produce this video if it weren't for laws enforced by the threat of consequences, because there would be no more old growth redwood groves.

http://vimeo.com/28414953


neal

No, they could attempt to sue me for loss of profits, but in the correct Libertarian form of government, they wouldn't get anywhere. You are correct that in todays system they would attempt to do it, and who knows, they might get away with it. For starters, like you pointed out, corporations used to be only set up for the public good. They were only allowed for as long as the served the public. This is a good example of a muddied up topic. Corporations becuase they were for the public good were allowed so it could be easier to provide for the public in certain ways. As usual, things changed, it appears that corporations used the courts and the slavery amendment to give themselves more rights than they had. And today of course things are upside down and turned on their head.
So the corporation thing wouldn't be an issue, instead it would be a person, or several people who went to do that on the land next to mine. It wouldn't be a corporation like we know today, and they wouldn't have the legal system like today on their side. So then in court, they couldn't claim a loss of profit as a right that was violated. If they are violating the right of another, that would be the wrong. Them not making a profit wouldn't fly in the correct Libertarian form of government, it may in today's form of gov.

I do not think you can say that without the laws all the trees in that video would certainly be gone.

[ruckman101]

Timber companies still salivate at protected timber now off limits. During the seventies the moaning groaning and lobbying was intense, the timber companies claiming undue hardships because they would have to re-tool all their mills to work smaller plantation timber rather than the old growth timber they were currently tooled to harvest.

Not much doubt in my mind that all of those trees would be gone and replaced (again by law) with new seedlings. Twenty and thirty year old redwood groves are an entirely different eco-system. As it is, we only have itty bitty pockets of what used to be wide-spread old growth groves of any tree species.

But then the timber industries are another can of worms.


neal