Impeachment Proceedings

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JLT
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by JLT » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:17 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:11 pm


As far as this impeachment, this week should be interesting. Will there be revolts if Trump is cleared in the Senate, with no witnesses called? I do see protests either way, but how bad will they be?
Pretty bad, I think. The fact that it's forming up to be a sham trial, with at least two senators ignoring their vow to be impartial and no witnesses allowed, is in itself grounds for protest. Clinton's impeachment hearing had at least the semblance of due process. This one doesn't look like it will even try to.
I have also thought of the 2020 election, if Trump wins again with the Electoral College and not the popular vote, I could see revolts with that too.
My prediction (or is it my hope?) is that after Trump is "exonerated," that will be grounds for every Republican up for re-election who acquits him to be challenged on the grounds that they are oath-breakers who can no longer be trusted with the reins of government. I think that's the way it will be spun. Whether that strategy will be effective remains to be seen. I take it as a good sign that the House has already been flipped, and shows signs of being even more blue when the next election rolls around.
Say, what good is the Electoral College again?
It is to increase the relative power of less populated states. That's all. I was taught in civics class, back when they had civics classes, that its other purpose was to create a last defense against a candidate who was obviously unfit for the office and had no regard for the Constitution, a separate-powers government, or a free press. Well, we can all see how that worked out.
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by hippiewannabe » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:46 pm

Make no mistake, Trump is an idiot, and I'm looking forward to seeing this "Any Functioning Adult" candidate I've been seeing so many lawn signs for.

But this impeachment is a crock. "We're gonna impeach the mother fucker!" is a nice T-shirt slogan, but that was two investigations ago. Many people recognize it was a hope in search of an opportunity.

I've listened to some of the proceedings, and it's the same talking points pounded by the Democrats in the House proceedings. When the defense starts, I'm sure we'll hear the same talking points pounded by the Republicans in the House. Both sides have awesome lawyers and top notch communications directors, so the points are good. If you listened only to MSNBC or Fox, you'd be convinced of their conclusions. They don't exactly lie, but by choosing what to emphasize and what to ignore, they have created completely parallel universes.

The key point that swings it for me is Hunter Biden, substance abuse and oath keeping problems included, and his qualifications to be paid $80,000 per month to be on the Board of Directors of a Ukrainian oil company. He has no experience in the oil industry, and has no Ukrainian experience. Clearly, his main qualification for the job is being the son of a powerful US politician. Any casual observer would say it wreaks of corruption, and is worth investigating. Of course it would benefit Trump. But to say asking Ukraine to investigate is "coercing a foreign government to interfere in the US election and a threat to national security" is an extreme overreach.

The political calculation is sound; during this time period, the approval rating of the incumbent president usually soars, as the challengers tear each other apart during the primary process. By turning the focus on the president with impeachment, the challenging nominee will come out less scarred than normal. But it's firing up Trump's base, and risks turning off the independents that are still in play.

There is no chance the Senate will vote to remove him, so it's all political theater. We'll see how it turns out.
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by kreemoweet » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:27 pm

It all reeks of corruption. All of it.

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by tommu » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:53 pm

As you well know, Hunter Biden is not the one being impeached. You can troll better than this.

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by hippiewannabe » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:01 pm

tommu wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:53 pm
As you well know, Hunter Biden is not the one being impeached. You can troll better than this.
That's your response to my post? Who's the troll?
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by tommu » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:40 pm

Well if you're not trolling you need close Facebook and watch a different cable network.

The president was impeached for obstruction of justice and abuse of power. If, as you laughably suggest, Trump was concerned about corruption then there would be a correct way to deal with it. Referral to law enforcement.

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by hippiewannabe » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:22 pm

tommu wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:40 pm
Well if you're not trolling you need close Facebook and watch a different cable network.
Says the guy whose total contribution to the discussion consists of two MSNBC/Democrat talking points.

I'll try again.

Impeachment has some similarities to a criminal trial. The House process is kind of like a grand jury, looking into things and judging if there is enough evidence to go to trial. The Senate process is like the actual jury trial. But the big difference is that in a criminal trial, there are two phases; guilt or innocence, then a determination of penalty. In impeachment, it is a binary choice; acquittal or the death penalty. In the Clinton impeachment, there was no doubt he was guilty as hell. He is on video looking straight in to the camera and committing perjury. But the Senate decided that the context of lying about infidelity didn't warrant removal from office.

In this case, because the subject Trump was pressing Ukraine to investigate looks like obvious corruption, it mitigates the fact that it was political arm twisting that would help him politically. It's a bit sleazy, but the Senate will vote to let the voters decide in less than a year, rather than go nuclear.

All the Democrats have to do to win the presidency is be businesslike and pretend to be bipartisan in Congress, and nominate a reasonable center-left candidate that can appeal to working class white men in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Ohio. Or, they can create a constitutional crisis, flail about hysterically, and put up an unlikable radical with no chance of winning, then scream the election was stolen because some voters were asked to show ID. We'll see.
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JLT
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by JLT » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:00 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:22 pm

Impeachment has some similarities to a criminal trial.

But not enough similarities. That's the trouble. In a real trial, witnesses may be called even after the trial starts. (It's called "discovery.") In a real trial, there are no arbitrary limits set on the length of the trial. In a real trial, no jurors are expected to endure marathon sessions. In a real trial, the prosecutors are not allowed to collaborate with the defendant to the extent that the Republican Senators have collaborated with the White House. In a real trial, any jurors who publicly state that they are already partial to the defendant would not be allowed to sit on the jury.

This isn't a trial. Supreme Court justice Breyer said as much, when he pointed to the section on the Constitution that says that "The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments." In his view, that means that the Senate must hold a trial ... a real trial, subject to the laws and traditions that form the basis of a trial in the legal sense.

This isn't that kind of trial. This is a kangaroo court. So let's not call it a trial.

All the Democrats have to do to win the presidency is be businesslike and pretend to be bipartisan in Congress, and nominate a reasonable center-left candidate that can appeal to working class white men in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Ohio. Or, they can create a constitutional crisis, flail about hysterically, and put up an unlikable radical with no chance of winning, then scream the election was stolen because some voters were asked to show ID. We'll see.
I'd like to hear your definition of an "unlikeable radical with no chance of winning," and whom specifically you might be referring to. Warren and Sanders have quite respectable poll ratings, even in those areas you mention. But it seems to me you're counseling Democrats to run just the sort of candidate ...Al Gore, John Kerry, Hilary Clinton ... that were unsuccessful. If I wanted the Republicans to win, that's just the sort of candidate I'd hope the Democrats would choose.

I'll go back to lurking now, but I thought that these points needed to be made.
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:36 pm

JLT wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:00 am

I'd like to hear your definition of an "unlikeable radical with no chance of winning," and whom specifically you might be referring to. Warren and Sanders have quite respectable poll ratings, even in those areas you mention. But it seems to me you're counseling Democrats to run just the sort of candidate ...Al Gore, John Kerry, Hilary Clinton ... that were unsuccessful. If I wanted the Republicans to win, that's just the sort of candidate I'd hope the Democrats would choose.
Right, Warren and Sanders are who I'm thinking of. The three previous losers you mentioned were fairly centrist, but were unlikable for one reason or another. Bill Clinton was centrist, and a tall, good looking, charismatic guy who won twice (we can talk about how women often make poor choices in men some other time) .

I haven't paid close attention to the polls, but I'm sure Warren and Sanders are leading with the enthusiastic Democratic base that drives the nomination. Do they also come out ahead vs Trump in the general election? The Democrat a guy like me would vote for is not the same candidate that would generate a big turnout by the Democrat faithful. Seems like both parties have gone for firing up the base versus appealing to the middle.

I would have voted for Biden last time, but with his age now, it will depend on his running mate. If Pete or Amy make it through, we'll see if they pivot to the center or stay left. Too bad my guy Andrew doesn't have a chance (damn racist liberals).

It's amazing that with peace and prosperity, the incumbent is not a sure thing. Trump seems to be getting a little better at the basics of politics, and has been less of a flaming douche lately. If unemployment stays below 5%, and nothing apocalyptic happens, he will beat Sanders or Warren, and has a solid chance even against a centrist.
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by asiab3 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:53 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:36 pm
Bill Clinton was … a tall, good looking, charismatic guy
Why the heck does ANY of that matter???
It's amazing that with peace and prosperity, the incumbent is not a sure thing. Trump seems to be getting a little better at the basics of politics, and has been less of a flaming douche lately. If unemployment stays below 5%, and nothing apocalyptic happens, he will beat Sanders or Warren, and has a solid chance even against a centrist.
Do you think the people that have been fouled and insulted by Trump's rhetoric give a crap about economic prosperity? It is easy to be a straight white male and agree with his 'rote' talking points. Despite his transactional nature, being "less of a flaming douche" is not exactly a campaign strategy, much less a springboard for leaders to inspire future generations…

I'm not arguing for or against Sanders or Warren here, (though I will in personal interactions,) I can not wait to see what the ballot boxes have to say about him this November. "Beat" is a strong word, with the popular vote, and all…

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by hippiewannabe » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:13 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:53 am
Why the heck does ANY of that matter???
Exactly. Do you think Donald Trump would be president if he was 5'-5" tall?
asiab3 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:53 am
Do you think the people that have been fouled and insulted by Trump's rhetoric give a crap about economic prosperity?
Yes, yes I do. History shows a large portion of the electorate votes their pocketbook. "It's the economy, stupid", was the mantra of the Clinton election team. In particular, middle class swing voters who have retirement savings are afraid of Sanders. As well they should be, regardless of how distasteful they may find Trump.
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JLT
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by JLT » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:36 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:13 pm
History shows a large portion of the electorate votes their pocketbook. "It's the economy, stupid", was the mantra of the Clinton election team. In particular, middle class swing voters who have retirement savings are afraid of Sanders. As well they should be, regardless of how distasteful they may find Trump.
And this is the real paradox. By all the usual metrics, the economy is going gangbusters, with unemployment at a low and the stock market at a high.

But these metrics aren't worth crap. They show that more wealth is being generated, but it's not going to most of the voters, who are finding year after year that their wages don't rise in step with their expenses. Instead, they're going to the select few who are the beneficiaries of the Republicans' tax-cut policy and a tax code that protects them from paying more. And unemployment? When people are working two jobs to make ends meet, and some people aren't even counted because they've given up looking for jobs that aren't there, then unemployment's true dimensions are masked.

It's those middle class voters that have really taken it in the teeth. They're losing real income, they're devastated by health care costs that drive them to bankruptcy, they're seeing a country where, for the first time, their children are going to be even worse off than they were. So when Bernie says, "I'm going to raise your taxes five thousand dollars, but you'll be saving twice that much when universal health care kicks in," they only hear the first part, and they vote for Trump, which means that Big Pharma and Big Insurance can keep on making us the laughing stock of the civilized world, which has already proved that universal health care is really the cheapest option.
-- JLT
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Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
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'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:05 pm

Hippie...you're starting to sound like a left of center kinda guy. :)

The process was a debacle, but I have hope for a centrist Democrat that will appeal to independents (and beat trump)... Pete B.won.
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by hippiewannabe » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:37 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:05 pm
Hippie...you're starting to sound like a left of center kinda guy. :)
If that means I think our system could use a little tweaking rather than being blown up, I'll take it. But I'm guessing my views on illegal immigration and law enforcement would get me voted off the island. :-)
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by airkooledchris » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:14 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:05 pm
Hippie...you're starting to sound like a left of center kinda guy. :)

The process was a debacle, but I have hope for a centrist Democrat that will appeal to independents (and beat trump)... Pete B.won.
If you want Trump gone, I wouldn't hold my breath that someone is going to bump him from a second term. It's extremely rare for someone not to get a second chance unless you are Carter or Bush 1, and then only because their own parties weren't that jazzed about them anymore. Trump's supporters are absolutely on board with *anything* he does, it really doesn't matter. You'd have to catch him on video drowning puppies, and even then I bet they'd justify it.

Ideally they flip congress, to hopefully slow down the moronic policies that are likely still in the pipeline. Otherwise we'll have Ronald McDonald in charge of the childhood lunch program and Kidd Rock as a National Security Adviser.

FWIW, I don't think Iowa means anything. The die hard right wingers are rushing to social media with their issued talking points to push the agenda they want, but it really doesn't mean a thing. Once the states that don't use the BS caucus system start coming in we'll see who's really doing well.
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