Dark Knight in Aurora Colorado

[Velokid1]

That's a very interesting thing, BP, that perhaps both sides have lost sight of the true origin of the 2nd Amendment, what brought it about and what it's intended for.

Not personal protection against your crazy neighbors, but protection against the government? And in that regard, we lost that arms race long, long ago. Anyone here have a Stealth F117A in their garage? I mean, if the point is that it's some sort of arms race against the federal govt, we screwed up several decades ago, when we decided to pour billions and billions into the development of atom bombs, etc.

[Amskeptic]

That's a very interesting thing, BP, that perhaps both sides have lost sight of the true origin of the 2nd Amendment, what brought it about and what it's intended for.

Not personal protection against your crazy neighbors, but protection against the government? And in that regard, we lost that arms race long, long ago. Anyone here have a Stealth F117A in their garage? I mean, if the point is that it's some sort of arms race against the federal govt, we screwed up several decades ago, when we decided to pour billions and billions into the development of atom bombs, etc.

The rationales brought up for this pro-automatic weaponry argument do not consider the facts.
We kill more people in this country with guns than any other country on Earth.

Protecting ourselves from home invasions is a bit lower on the to-do list than protecting ourselves from each other on the roadways. We lose more people to stupidity than running out of ammo in a gun fight with crazed robbers in our homes.

The whole notion of "why have gun control if crazies will just get them on the black market?" is no different than "why tax the rich if it won't solve the debt crisis?" Well, why make your kid follow house rules if they will just break them anyway? It is about communicating our values.

We have to make a values statement with our laws, and our values right now are insane. By all means make obtaining a firearm at least as difficult as getting a driver's license. Please.
Colin

[vdubyah73]

drivers license is a priviledge, right to bear arms is just that, a rright.

[Bleyseng]

yes, the right to bear arms is a right but what arms is the question? Why it was written the arms of the day were flintlock rifles not assault rifles nor machine guns. That's what has changed the way the "right" is viewed by most people. Just like a drivers license is for driving a car not a motorcycle or a commercial truck. I view the right to bear arms to mean a handgun or a hunting rifle. The NRA would disagree but this has to be sorted out soon!

[dtrumbo]

So since we're delineating between rights and privileges, I find it funny that the right to bear arms is untouchable and completely off the table for discussion but a woman's right to choose is just one presidential election and one supreme court appointee away from obliteration. Or so says one side of the fence. I grow weary of those who wrap themselves in the flag and preach that the founding principles cannot and must not be altered yet would alter them in a half of a heartbeat if it suited them and their personal agenda.

[RussellK]

So since we're delineating between rights and privileges, I find it funny that the right to bear arms is untouchable and completely off the table for discussion but a woman's right to choose is just one presidential election and one supreme court appointee away from obliteration. Or so says one side of the fence. I grow weary of those who wrap themselves in the flag and preach that the founding principles cannot and must not be altered yet would alter them in a half of a heartbeat if it suited them and their personal agenda.

=D>

The right to bear arms argument interpreted as meaning little or no restrictions strikes me as weak. It was impure as soon as we agreed felons shouldn't be allowed to arm themselves. We have the right to vote but still understand the registration requirement. Well. Don't we?

[Velokid1]

I agree- I find that argument to be very weak.

For one thing, your ability to drive is a right; you have the right to drive, provided you meet certain conditions. If you meet all the conditions that other people who are licensed meet, then you have the right to a driver's license. If you are denied one even though you've met the necessary conditions, you have a legal claim against the DMV.

I'm about as neutral as a person can get. I actually want to own a gun and have been thinking it over carefully the last few years. I want to buy a gun.... but I'm caring enough that I would like for my purchase and possession of said gun to be appropriately difficult and to require me by law to actually take a firearms safety course at regular intervals. Right now, I could walk to the gun shop behind my work, fill out a few papers, and because I have no felonies on my record I would be carrying a gun around town next week. Sort of alarming considering I don't know the first thing about carrying or shooting a gun safely.

If that doesn't concern you, you are too invested in the debate, or too paranoid, to think through the issue rationally.

[dingo]

as George Carlin noted, these 'rights' dont really exist at all....just an idea, an ideal, a concept, a value...some dude slightly smarter than you or I thought it might be sensible at the time..scrawled some ink on a parchment. No one really has the 'right' to do anything, or put another way, everyone has the 'right' to do whatever they want. People who hold up these 'rights' as if they were holy scriptures dropped out of the sky, only do so if it re-enforces their personal agenda...

[Bleyseng]

as George Carlin noted, these 'rights' dont really exist at all....just an idea, an ideal, a concept, a value...some dude slightly smarter than you or I thought it might be sensible at the time..scrawled some ink on a parchment. No one really has the 'right' to do anything, or put another way, everyone has the 'right' to do whatever they want. People who hold up these 'rights' as if they were holy scriptures dropped out of the sky, only do so if it re-enforces their personal agenda...

Haha, tell that to the NRA. The right to bear arms is in the 10 Commandments!

[Hippie]

yes, the right to bear arms is a right but what arms is the question? Why it was written the arms of the day were flintlock rifles not assault rifles nor machine guns.

It was written in the day that any rampant government was also only armed with flintlocks. The fact that we are free to discuss this is due to the second ammendment.

[Hippie]

We kill more people in this country with guns than any other country on Earth.

No "we" do not. A criminal element does this. The murder rate in the USA is a distant second to many nations where guns of any kind are not legally, or at least easily, obtainable. Dead is dead. Let's not pull the ancinet media trick of "gun deaths" or "gun violence" when we are really concerned with deaths and violence by any means at hand.
What makes anyone think that criminals will obey these new gun restrictions?
"Gee, I'd like to waste everyone in a theater but it would be illegal without getting my permit first."

[Amskeptic]

No "we" do not. A criminal element does this.

"Criminal element" is Richard Nixon/Spiro Agnew speak for a false distancing from the fact that most gun victims know their shooter, that most gun deaths are domestic in nature, they are *not* some unknown criminal element, they are us.

The murder rate in the USA is a distant second to many nations where guns of any kind are not legally, or at least easily, obtainable.

From the American Bar Association:

In 2003, there were 30,136 firearm-related deaths in the United States; 16,907 (56%) suicides, 11,920 (40%) homicides (including 347 deaths due to legal intervention/war), and 962 (3%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths.
CDC/National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports 1999-2003 http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars

The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.
Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Rates of homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among children: 26 industrialized countries

Let's not pull the ancinet media trick of "gun deaths" or "gun violence" when we are really concerned with deaths and violence by any means at hand.

What "media trick" do you think I am pulling? We are discussing gun deaths. I am personally seriously discussing something that has great bearing on my relationship with this country. You think I am just playing tricks? Gun deaths deserve their own category. They deserve their own discussion. We are not discussing "by any means at hand". We are discussing the unusual ease with which this 24 year-old was able to buy weaponry and ammunition online and easily kill 12 people and injure 58!! in a minute. If we discussed car crash deaths, would you obfuscate and shunt with a reply that claims, "let's not pull the ancient media trick of car crash deaths or car crash injuries when we are really concerned with all deaths and injuries." No we are not. We can stay focused. Guns are a unique category with an astonishingly effective kill rate. Ask any emergency room physician.

What makes anyone think that criminals will obey these new gun restrictions?
"Gee, I'd like to waste everyone in a theater but it would be illegal without getting my permit first."

AGAIN, this is NOT about whether criminals will obey. Your example is I am sorry, too typical. This about the values we hold as a society. Like I mentioned, we know our kids will test rules and break them, but we have to state them to define what we are about. I think it is sick sick sick that the NRA has us by the short hairs with stupid asinine rationalizations to arm us to the teeth and have paid Congress to be patsies and pushovers when the current American public wants more rigorous gun control by some 70% majority. The insanity of our laws is a reflection not of the majority of American people, but of the pathologically broken Congress and the power of money to violate obvious logic and simple solutions.
Colin

[Bleyseng]

We kill more people in this country with guns than any other country on Earth.

No "we" do not. A criminal element does this. The murder rate in the USA is a distant second to many nations where guns of any kind are not legally, or at least easily, obtainable. Dead is dead. Let's not pull the ancinet media trick of "gun deaths" or "gun violence" when we are really concerned with deaths and violence by any means at hand.
What makes anyone think that criminals will obey these new gun restrictions?
"Gee, I'd like to waste everyone in a theater but it would be illegal without getting my permit first."

Per Wiki: "The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries, though they also have the highest rate of gun ownership and highest rate of officers.[9]"
To me the no brainer thought is that we have flooded the population with guns with easy access and then "we" use them. That's why I want stronger gun control laws. I also want to get rid of gun shows. Where in the constitution is that a right?

Yesterday the police came to visit us about our neighbor who wants to buy a handgun (a Glock) for personal protection. We were interviewed about his character, his business (car dealer) etc and did we have any objections to his owning a gun. Amazing that this happened in a 3rd world country to me. I asked what next happens for him and getting a permit. The officers replied that he will have to take a gun education course and a shooting course at the gun range and pass the exams before he can own the gun.
Can't we have these types of laws in the USA? A simple character check by the police? Gun education and learning how to shoot and handle a weapon before you are allowed to have one?

The reason our neighbor wants a gun is because 3 months ago his sister and husband were robbed at 4 am and beaten badly. Fortunately, the sister had no problems recovering along with her 7 month old unborn child. They moved in with our neighbor and they are building a addition to his house while selling of the house where the robbery occurred.

[Hippie]

So let me get this straight, you want to try to reduce only deaths by gun, regardless of collateral damage? Even if the overal murder and violence rate climbs? Got it.

The criminally element that I am referring to is those with a violent disposition, not just professional criminals. Do not include me or other law-abiding citizens in your "we" statement.

[Bleyseng]

No, quoting wiki "The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries".
I want to not be in the top ten even of gun related injuries per capita of all countries. We are the land of the free, home of the brave but we sure shoot ourselves a lot. There is no reason we have so many guns other than the Defense company's make a lot of money selling em to us. God forbid it might lower their profits and cost a few effin jobs.