The Rich Are Still Getting Richer

[Lanval]

[RussellK]

Who cares what Mark Baurlein writes. My boomer peers are saying to me "Holy Hell these kids are smart"

[sped372]

We're all just people and we're all flawed. I find myself shying away from any arguments that place the blame solely on some other group of people. You can always enlarge the boundaries of the group in question to include yourself. By that reasoning, we can all share responsibility... we're all on this little round rock together. If we don't find a way to work together it will be taken out of our hands, nature will continue without us.

As generations progress, the young always inherit the positive and negative achievements of those that came before them; there is no other way for time to pass. If that caveman wouldn't have discovered fire we wouldn't be in this mess.

You can't change the past, you can only work today to change tomorrow.

[Amskeptic]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Dumbest-Gener ... 792&sr=8-1

I guess you think it is just chance that the author calls today's youth "the dumbest generation" as a parody of "the greatest generation". Or that his use of the phrase "or don't trust anyone under 30" comes entirely from the author, and is not meant to resonate to a whole group of people who self-identify according to a set of values, ages, experiences and so on.

I don't agree with that guy as far as I got on the Amazon review. Does that blow your thesis to hell?

Us oldsters have to be careful not to miss the evolution of human relevance. Kids these days have a new set of "important information" to deal with, it might not be rote memorization of Latin like the old days, it might not be the geography and history and elementary science of my generation, they have new things to learn.
I don't know if this guy is tongue-in-cheek, or writes belittlingly of what kids don't know, or if he is actually sensitive to their lack of preparation for today's challenging world. Heck, I haven't read his book. I have seen people on "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader" who made me cringe, I have seen fifth graders on "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader" who gave me hope. What is your point? That that author is a "typical baby-boomer'?

That said, you've made your point, though I doubt it's the point you were trying to make.

Tell me the point that you got, then. I need to opportunity to improve my communication skills.

You want to shout me down in your own forum because you don't like what I'm saying, by all means.

That definitely is not my point.

There are too many good people who have asked for my time to spend more here on this or anything else. I leave you to hiroller and the your tribe.
Michael L

This is no tribe. Last week you were in agreement with me on some matter, this week you are not in agreement with me, so what? You cannot hoist the petard of tribalism like those people who rail against the "hoity-toity professor liberal socialist Marxists". Come on, lighten up AND stop bashing groups of people who don't even know they are part of the "tribe" you love dissing for their (cough couch) selfishness and arrogance, do you also diss them for taking their ball and going home?
Colin

[HiRoller]

There are too many good people who have asked for my time to spend more here on this or anything else. I leave you to hiroller and the your tribe.

Michael L

Yet another angry tail-gun. Oh I'm sorry ... maybe I should change my birth year to 1980 or 1990 instead of around the middle of the last century to get out of 'that' tribe ???

Your contentions to support your perceptions regarding the subject are simply too generalized and sweeping to hold water, instead coming across as an angry rant and moving target coupled with hurling frustration-induced insults.

[Lanval]

There are too many good people who have asked for my time to spend more here on this or anything else. I leave you to hiroller and the your tribe.

Michael L

Yet another angry tail-gun. Oh I'm sorry ... maybe I should change my birth year to 1980 or 1990 instead of around the middle of the last century to get out of 'that' tribe ???

Your contentions to support your perceptions regarding the subject are simply too generalized and sweeping to hold water, instead coming across as an angry rant and moving target coupled with hurling frustration-induced insults.

Don't change your birth year, change your attitude. There's nothing of the moving target in what I've said. If you stopped to listen to what I say, look at some of the links and really consider the broader perspective of what I've argued, you see that there are many, many people talking about this problem, including a goodly number from your own age group. You seem to be particularly piqued by what I've argued, and from you original post, you've claimed that:

1. Your an expert
2. I'm completely wrong
3. You are not required to support 1 or 2

Your reaction alone is enough proof to those paying attention; if what I said was demonstrably false, you wouldn't even be posting here. It's not, and that's the problem. You can choose to change who you are and what you do, but frankly, there's nothing more in line with what I've been talking about than your willingness to impute ignorance and stupidity to me and my argument, without the need to suggest why that might be true.

You can scream "You're wrong!" all you want; that won't change the truth, nor those who speak it to power.

I find the amount of resistance to this argument, fascinating, though predictable. Earlier in these posts, various people (including Colin) happily made all kinds of sweeping generalizations based on a variety of bases, including generation, historical period, nationality and so on; nobody's panties got in bunch then, so why now?

From Bumblebus: "The vast majority of the US citizenry are fat and complacent"
From Colin: "The U.S. Congress itself."
From Colin: "I thought we as a Nation understood this."
From Belleplaine: "My grandfather’s generation lived through The Depression and valued the tools that were required to survive like community, hard work, and delayed gratification."

Should we allow Colin to tar and feather Congress en masse while good men like Ron Wyden labor to serve us so well?

Or why not browbeat Belleplaine for referring to his "Grandfather's generation..."?

The tone and content of your argument, your absolutism in response to my own, more nuanced claims, coupled with your silence on these other instances puts the real issue before us all; it's not the sweeping nature of my claims (a statement which indicates you haven't really read what I've written), but the topic. A self-proclaimed member of the generation that lived through the 60's you seem to be uncomfortable with being held accountable for the broader effects of that group. That other groups should be held accountable ~ congressmen, Depression-era citizens, or even the collective multitudes of US citizens (which Colin suggests earlier had some sort of collective acceptance of values, a claim that directly undercuts his critique of my ideas) seems not to be a problem for you; that the group you belong to is called to account, however, is untenable. Why?

Colin, as for your insistence that no matter how many citations or proofs I offer, I'm wrong, and that this isn't an academic symposium, I ask you this: You earlier posted this comment:

I thought we as a Nation understood this. The most productive period in our Nation's history was after WWII where we did invest in GI Bills, we did support public education, unions were a healthy counterpoint to our corporate growth, and we built an infrastructure second to none . . . with a 90% tax rate at the top.

Why do you retain for yourself the right to cite historical events, ideas or statistics, but assert that when I do the same, it's valueless? You said that it's not your intent to shout me down, but that's precisely what you and HiRoller are doing, by arguing that nothing I offer in support of my ideas matters, because I am categorically wrong. If that's the case, if all we have are absolute claims without the need to prove, support or otherwise test their validity, then why bother? We can just all post our beliefs, call each other ignorant and be done.

Colin, you managed to browbeat Bumblebus out of this discussion by end of the first page, and have been unrelenting in your claim that I'm absolutely wrong, and have no right to make generalizations about groups of people, whether they agree with the ideas that I'm imputing to the group even as you do the same. What's the point in continuing when you're always right, and no evidence to contrary is even considered; as I said, you've beaten me out too.

Michael L

[HiRoller]

Don't change your birth year, change your attitude.

What's my attitude, Lanval ? You mean should I start marginalizing people based on ethnicity, religion, age, sex, etc., forcing them to wear some sort of public identification, consolidating them into ghettos, corraling them into concentration camps, and then liquidating them ? If you like reams of stats then there's plenty to support the aforementioned when you start pointing fingers and play the blame game.

If you stopped to listen to what I say, look at some of the links and really consider the broader perspective of what I've argued, you see that there are many, many people talking about this problem, including a goodly number from your own age group.

There are many, many people that talk a lot about everything else too including hopping rides on the next comet that comes close to earth but it doesn't make it accurate. And the "many, many' of which you speak is a tiny percentage of the total populace, not vast quantities you imply (spin) to support your contention.

1. Your an expert

At no time did I ever say this so that's a lie, a classic example of a spin.

2. I'm completely wrong

At no time did I ever say you're "completely wrong" so that's a lie , a classic example of a spin. The record in this thread will show that I agree that the rich are getting richer. That's not rocket science. Everyone already knows this ... has know it for years. I did say I disagree with you about sweeping generalizations regarding age/blame and that's the heart of it.

Your reaction alone is enough proof to those paying attention; if what I said was demonstrably false, you wouldn't even be posting here.

Oh ... now that makes sense ... sounds like a silly playground nyah-nyah

but frankly, there's nothing more in line with what I've been talking about than your willingness to impute ignorance and stupidity to me and my argument, without the need to suggest why that might be true.

I never at any time said you were stupid so that's a lie. I did say you seem to be ignorant of historical facts ...

You can scream "You're wrong!" all you want; that won't change the truth, nor those who speak it to power.

I'm not a screamer.

I find the amount of resistance to this argument, fascinating, though predictable. Earlier in these posts, various people (including Colin) happily made all kinds of sweeping generalizations based on a variety of bases, including generation, historical period, nationality and so on; nobody's panties got in bunch then, so why now?

Because they were accurate.

From Bumblebus: "The vast majority of the US citizenry are fat and complacent"

According to the stats, your favorite, the majority of Americans are overweight.

From Colin: "The U.S. Congress itself."

Does he need to mention every congressman/woman by name each time ?

From Colin: "I thought we as a Nation understood this."

Does the shoe fit when put into context ?

From Belleplaine: "My grandfather’s generation lived through The Depression and valued the tools that were required to survive like community, hard work, and delayed gratification."

That's true. Those that lived through the Great Depression were deeply impacted psychologically their whole remaining lives and formed a general ethos.

Should we allow Colin to tar and feather Congress en masse while good men like Ron Wyden labor to serve us so well?

"tar & feather" is an extreme, alluding innuendo phrase used to paint a different picture from what was intended. And when put in context the statement was metaphoric.

And Ron Wyden is from Portland where you said people live in the past ...

Or why not browbeat Belleplaine for referring to his "Grandfather's generation..."?

Because he's not trying to inaccurately marginalize playing the blame game, simply expressing an opinion.

The tone and content of your argument, your absolutism in response to my own, more nuanced claims, coupled with your silence on these other instances puts the real issue before us all;

Oh how grand does that sound complete with extremisms ... and yes ... the real issue is revealed ???

it's not the sweeping nature of my claims (a statement which indicates you haven't really read what I've written), but the topic.

It's not the sweeping nature but the topic, being the rich are getting richer ? Maybe I'm wrong to agree with that ?

A self-proclaimed member of the generation that lived through the 60's you seem to be uncomfortable with being held accountable for the broader effects of that group.

A "self-proclaimed member of a generation that lived through the 60's" ??? Maybe it was all an illusion and I wasn't there ... am much younger than I thought ???

"uncomfortable with being held accountable for the broader effects of that group" .... this gets back to my main point ... why would any individual of any age need to apologize for their collective peers, especially when the premise is inaccurate from the start ?

That other groups should be held accountable ~ congressmen, Depression-era citizens, or even the collective multitudes of US citizens (which Colin suggests earlier had some sort of collective acceptance of values, a claim that directly undercuts his critique of my ideas) seems not to be a problem for you; that the group you belong to is called to account, however, is untenable. Why?

Because the premise is inaccurate as it pertains to sweeping generalizations. Garbage in, garbage out.

You said that it's not your intent to shout me down, but that's precisely what you and HiRoller are doing, by arguing that nothing I offer in support of my ideas matters, because I am categorically wrong.

It's not just Colin and I so you can't put a spin by implying it's only a couple ... re-read the thread. And it's your sweeping age-bias generalizations that are inaccurate. If you were to remove all reference to generations and other nonsense group marginalizations then perhaps some or many might agree with some specific points.

If that's the case, if all we have are absolute claims without the need to prove, support or otherwise test their validity, then why bother? We can just all post our beliefs, call each other ignorant and be done.

Because it's one thing to have opinions and either agree or disagree, quite another to exhibit bias based on fundamental inaccuracies. But even with respect to the latter we're still expressing opinions based on the bias.

And as best I can tell, nobody called anyone ignorant per se ... perhaps ignorant of certain historical facts which is different than the more sweeping generalization of the former of which you seem to repeatedly have great difficulty understanding the difference.

[Amskeptic]

it's one thing to have opinions and either agree or disagree, quite another to exhibit bias based on fundamental inaccuracies. But even with respect to the latter we're still expressing opinions based on the bias.

As far as conversations go, this has been an interesting exchange of opinions. If anyone wants to own this discussion on a deeper level, not so much.
Colin

[HiRoller]

As far as conversations go, this has been an interesting exchange of opinions. If anyone wants to own this discussion on a deeper level, not so much.
Colin

Colin posts = 24
Lanval posts = 23
HiRoller posts = 12 (incl. this one)



Anyway ... don't worry about a thing. I know Lanval is your bud and overall it's a tight knit group. I'm normally not a prolific poster so will be checking out now ...

[glasseye]

I'm normally not a prolific poster so will be checking out now ...

Sorry to hear that, HiRoller. Your arguments are clear, concise and well reasoned and I for one enjoy your contributions. Lanval's sweeping generalizations and insulting admonitions need challenging and I can't do that without getting angry.

I for one wish you'd hang around.

[ruckman101]

Tight knit needs loosening now and again.


neal

[RussellK]

I just love it when the smart kids fight. It's a whole different level than over at the bad kids table. Does everyone remember hushpuppies?

[Amskeptic]

As far as conversations go, this has been an interesting exchange of opinions. If anyone wants to own this discussion on a deeper level, not so much.
Colin

Colin posts = 24
Lanval posts = 23
HiRoller posts = 12 (incl. this one)



Anyway ... don't worry about a thing. I know Lanval is your bud and overall it's a tight knit group. I'm normally not a prolific poster so will be checking out now ...

It's like herding cats around here. I think practicing debate/discussion amongst friends is a useful thing, very useful in light of our Nation's breakdown of compromise and give-and-take. My "bud" is out on a cool-down lap, and I hopefully invited him to "come back when you can make it through the first round" because for crying out loud, if we can't bear disagreement, if we can't tolerate challenges to our beliefs, what the hell is the point of being intelligent people trying to figure it all out.

You are cordially invited to spew about anything that concerns you any time you want.
Colin

[RussellK]

Oh my do we take ourselves too seriously. Whatever happened to an exchange of ideas instead of the necessity to prove wrong as the end game.

[Bleyseng]

Yes, all over the world the "Rich Are Still Getting Richer".
Just before I left Suriname a man finally testified that the President (former Dictator in the 80-90's) shot and killed two men in the famous Dec 8th 1982 killings of 15 men who were critics of the coup. No one has had the guts to come out and testify before in this trial (going on for 5 years) as everyone knew testifying was a death sentence. The next week the President controlled Parliament passed a amnesty amendment to the constitution for anyone involved in the executions. Unbelievable! and the USA, Netherlands and World Court are pressuring Suriname that Human Rights Violations (executions) are not subject to amnesty. Several large protests have occurred about this joke of a amendment passed by the former dictator....
So far his cronies that have been appointed to high government positions have just enrichened themselves and their families with land grants and misappropriated funds (of course). The former dictator has not allowed prosecution or grant immunity!
So I look at what is going on in the USA and still have some faith as I do VOTE and it counts!!!! Hopefully in the next 4 years one of these GOP Supreme Court judges will step down or die and we will rescind the stupid (corporations are a person) ruling and stop the buying of elections. Or the results will be just like in Suriname now.....