"Big" government

[BellePlaine]

I think it is *your perception* that can look around at this modern evolved industrial economy/culture that is unfuckingbelievablymorecomplicated than anything envisioned by the Founding Fathers, and conclude that the answer is to turn back.
Colin

I'm interested to learn more about why it is that some believe that this "modern evolved industrial economy/culture" requires a progressive government to manage it? Why is it we look to expand government’s reach and power (read: a few men's reach and power) instead of expanding the power to all of us, everyone, as individuals? Which new problems are we facing today (that our FF could not have envisioned) that a collectively large group of individuals cannot solve without government’s help?

[steve74baywin]

I think it is *your* perception, Steve, to say that the darkness was indeed partially responsible for the theft of a car. In no way can anyone claim that darkness is responsible for the theft of a car. To up the idiocy of that claim, a person can drown in the ocean. The ocean is not responsible for the drowning. "But it is," you say, "in part."

Yeah, in part, like I said.

I think it is *your perception* that can look around at this modern evolved industrial economy/culture that is unfuckingbelievablymorecomplicated than anything envisioned by the Founding Fathers, and conclude that the answer is to turn back.

It is probably the only obvious, most simple thing to do, undo the wrongs. That it almost always the correct solution. If you added a bunch of junk that messed something up, you remove it and go back to the better, simpler solution for sure, removing the added junk that has broken things and caused the problems most certainly is the fix.

(Velokid1, I do not know if it is exasperation or your committed belief that American government is a joke. I would recommend a step back in history to look around at how the majority of human beings have survived under varying styles of leadership over the course of civilization. American government is a true accomplishment infected by small gnats of self-centered twits. Sit with me some night overlooking the L.A. metro basin and marvel that the below actually works)

I know your comment was to Velo, but I will take the liberty to comment on it also.
Yes Colin, humans are great, humans are smart, etc, etc, The L.A. metro basin may have some good sites to see, I'm sure the Roman Empire did too, as well as the Egyptian one. For one much of our success was under the smaller limited government and not what we have today, also, there is plenty bad....All the people who died in the Iraq war can thank a big government like ours for that, and I could go on and on and on with all the wrongs done but this big gov that would have been harder with a smaller limited gov. That doesn't mean gov in general should be categorized as either good or bad. It needs to be broken down better, like we do on here. One that is limited and follows the true intent behind the creation of ours would be better than one that can be played by rich cronies who send our kids to war for their profit.

[Velokid1]

Steve- I have such a hard time getting past your assumption that I have formed my impressions of Libertarianism solely based on what you have typed here that I can't even get myself to respond past that. This is only a suggestion but you might want to stop and question what it is that makes you assume such things.

Colin- At first glance I felt like, "I agree with Colin- I wonder why he seems to feel our opinions differ from one another." But when I re-read my post, I think I see the distinction.

I share your wonder and admiration of American infrastructure. And of course public policy and thus politics has enormous bearing on our infrastructure, as well as on our markets, our currency, even our social fabric. It's incredible, it really is. And while I haven't done much international traveling and don't consider myself well-informed about other countries and cultures (reasonably-informed, perhaps, and with a strong interest), I do think one would be hard-pressed to find another country/economy/society whose complexities equal America's and run as smoothly. It's amazing.

But, things that are amazing can also be broken. It's amazing that my 35 year old bus is still fully operational, but I feel justified in being irritated with the fact that it has a dozen things that need repair or adjustment. And if my bus were like our government in the sense that there are both men and inanimate forces (market, political, social forces) standing in the way of "tuning it up"... e.g. if I were finally motivated to install my charcoal canister but a local law passed banning activated carbon... well, I would become doubly irritated with the imperfect state of my bus, for wholly new reasons.

Humans are amazing, we really are. But man we need a tune-up. My point was that dropping the bus off at the dump because someone managed to pass a law banning activated carbon doesn't make any sense at all.

[steve74baywin]

Steve- I have such a hard time getting past your assumption that I have formed my impressions of Libertarianism solely based on what you have typed here that I can't even get myself to respond past that. This is only a suggestion but you might want to stop and question what it is that makes you assume such things.

Greg, I think that is your perception and assumption. No where did I say you only got your info on Libertarianism from me on here.
I did not assume that, what you suggest to me I suggest to you.

This is only a suggestion but you might want to stop and question what it is that makes you assume such things.

You need to ask yourself what made you assume that I assumed something I did not assume.
I'll state a different way, If you read just bits of what I posted you should know Libertarian isn't "no" gov, however, that does not assume that you "have formed your impressions of Libertarianism solely based on what I have typed", not at all, actually, if anything it should show that I think, like I said, that perhaps you didn't read or get anything from my postings. How could me implying that you might not have got anything about Libertarianism from me be taken as me assuming you got it all from me?
Please clarify, it may be that you just read my post way to quick.

Either way, can you tell me where you got your idea that a Libertarian equals NO Government.

[Amskeptic]

The L.A. metro basin may have some good sites to see,

All the people who died in the Iraq war can thank a big government like ours for that,

No.
I can't address this with the diligence required, but no, it is not about "sites to see" and no it is not "big government" that made Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney and George Bush decide to run amok in Iraq.
No.

[ruckman101]

The L.A. metro basin may have some good sites to see,

All the people who died in the Iraq war can thank a big government like ours for that,

No.
I can't address this with the diligence required, but no, it is not about "sites to see" and no it is not "big government" that made Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney and George Bush decide to run amok in Iraq.
No.

Yes, no.


neal

[steve74baywin]

The L.A. metro basin may have some good sites to see,

All the people who died in the Iraq war can thank a big government like ours for that,

No.
I can't address this with the diligence required, but no, it is not about "sites to see" and no it is not "big government" that made Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney and George Bush decide to run amok in Iraq.
No.

If you get the time to comment on the rest, cool. But I can comment on what you did post.
Sure perhaps big government didn't make them, but if we had the limited Libertarian government based on Natural Law as intended by our founding fathers, especially with the limited military guide lines and such in the constitution, they wouldn't have been able to do what they did. In this system, where they veered from the Natural Law principles and people now think they can scream loud and make the gov whatever they want it to be they were able to run amok in Iraq. Like I say, if you create a gov that can bend, violate and ignore it's limited roots you open up the door for all the atrocities it has done in your name with your money, and you can now share in the guilt.

[Velokid1]

I can't believe I'm doing this.

No where did I say you only got your info on Libertarianism from me on here.
I did not assume that, what you suggest to me I suggest to you.

I'll state a different way, If you read just bits of what I posted you should know Libertarian isn't "no" gov, however, that does not assume that you "have formed your impressions of Libertarianism solely based on what I have typed",

How could me implying that you might not have got anything about Libertarianism from me be taken as me assuming you got it all from me?

I got it from this:

Serious, I am very saddened that after all this time and all my post you think Libertarian equals no government.
I really do feel I have been wasting my time on here if after all these years people think Libertarian equals no government, or I really do suck at communicating, but that would still mean I'm wasting my time.

If I were to paraphrase what you said above it would be, "I am wasting my time posting here if you guys still don't agree with me about Libertarianism."

Either way, can you tell me where you got your idea that a Libertarian equals NO Government.

Not from you. But I get the idea that thousands of people all over this country right now who consider themselves Libertarian feel like their ideal version of America would involve no federal government at all. Their opinions and desires do not reflect those of strict Libertarians, but the fact remains that if I support the candidates and policies that those people support, I am supporting those people and their agendas. People who cannot see the good work done by entities such as the FDA and the US Department of Education, but instead see only the corruption in those agencies and are so lazy that the only solution they can think of is to castrate them or eradicate them entirely. Cause fixing something is too much work... we're a society that likes disposable things and inexpensive, shoddy replacements.

[steve74baywin]

Either way, can you tell me where you got your idea that a Libertarian equals NO Government.

Not from you. But I get the idea that thousands of people all over this country right now who consider themselves Libertarian feel like their ideal version of America would involve no federal government at all. Their opinions and desires do not reflect those of strict Libertarians, but the fact remains that if I support the candidates and policies that those people support, I am supporting those people and their agendas. People who cannot see the good work done by entities such as the FDA and the US Department of Education, but instead see only the corruption in those agencies and are so lazy that the only solution they can think of is to castrate them or eradicate them entirely. Cause fixing something is too much work... we're a society that likes disposable things and inexpensive, shoddy replacements.

We see some good in some agencies, but one of the Libertarian slogans used to be, maybe still is, "The party of principle". We see some good in those agency, but we still would not have those agencies, even though there is some good the method of achieving it is wrong, it goes against our principle. We stand by guidelines, principle, natural law. It don't matter what good there is in it, if it is taken via force and or against someones will, it is wrong.

If I break into your house and steal $2000 worth of stuff, even if I use 70% of that money for educating a kid, we still feel it is wrong.
It is not my money or property, and my way of education might not be other peoples way.
There would be a government, your no government comment is still wrong.

So, it is not that we can't see the good, it is not that we are lazy, it is that we feel it is still wrong to violate peoples rights and steal money for something we think is good or better.
We go by principles.

[Velokid1]

If I break into your house and steal $2000 worth of stuff, even if I use 70% of that money for educating a kid, we still feel it is wrong.

So you consider taxation stealing and you believe that education is not a goal worthy of the tax dollars "stolen" from you. Fair enough, but just understand that that is the crux of the job before you. That's the key thing you need to convince people of. Many of us disagree that taxation is theft, regardless of what it is used for.

We go by principles.

You missed my point. You are saying "we" but I have observed that many people who support the Libertarian party are not basing their beliefs and desires on principle, as you do, but rather see Libertarianism as a means to an end, with the desired end being to not be taxed along with a host of other personal agendas based on selfishness, racism, politics.

So then, to be clear... I'm not saying you are one of them; I am saying that my support of Libertarianism at this point would also be supporting thousands of people who are embracing Libertarianism for pretty shitty reasons. Many racist, paranoid, greedy, gun-crazy, education-hating individuals seem to be hiding behind Libertarianism these days.

[steve74baywin]

If I break into your house and steal $2000 worth of stuff, even if I use 70% of that money for educating a kid, we still feel it is wrong.

So you consider taxation stealing and you believe that education is not a goal worthy of the tax dollars "stolen" from you. Fair enough, but just understand that that is the crux of the job before you. That's the key thing you need to convince people of. Many of us disagree that taxation is theft, regardless of what it is used for.

Certain forms of taxation and what they are used for, Yes, I consider it stealing.

We go by principles.

You missed my point. You are saying "we" but I have observed that many people who support the Libertarian party are not basing their beliefs and desires on principle, as you do, but rather see Libertarianism as a means to an end, with the desired end being to not be taxed along with a host of other personal agendas based on selfishness, racism, politics.

I don't see these thousands of people that you see.
I'm not sure how you make your judgment, I hate to say it, but are you assuming to know what is on their minds?
This is to me no different than the reason the people who are for the gov agencies are for them, selfish, racism, and politics amongst other reasons.
One huge difference in the end, if both groups were to get their way, one would be taking things from others against their will, the other group would not. Sort of an odd thing to say, that the group who isn't for taking money against peoples will for what they think is good is selfish and the group that is for taking money against peoples will for what they think is good is not selfish. ??? Seems backwards to me.

I hope this doesn't offend too much, but

So then, to be clear... I'm not saying you are one of them; I am saying that my support of Libertarianism at this point would also be supporting thousands of people who are embracing Libertarianism for pretty shitty reasons. Many racist, paranoid, greedy, gun-crazy, education-hating individuals seem to be hiding behind Libertarianism these days.

Is what your seeing the usual BS propaganda put forth by the news media. The news painting a picture that isn't correct?
Are there really education hating people? If so, maybe they feel this education system has been hijacked and isn't any good.
But anyways, if you don't want to get behind Libertarians because some people perhaps are "Many racist, paranoid, greedy, gun-crazy, education-hating", then I don't see how you could ever vote Democrat or Republican or how you could ever get behind anything even closely associated with Democrat or Republican if you hold the same standard?

[Velokid1]

The opinions I am seeing are primarily in the comments section of online newspapers and letters to the editor. I realize that's not a scientific census of Libertarians but it's all I got.

Are there really education hating people? If so, maybe they feel this education system has been hijacked and isn't any good.

Thank you- my point precisely. It is wrong for someone to hate education and the educational system simply because it has been hijacked. It's like hating a robbery victim because they've been victimized.

But anyways, if you don't want to get behind Libertarians because some people perhaps are "Many racist, paranoid, greedy, gun-crazy, education-hating", then I don't see how you could ever vote Democrat or Republican or how you could ever get behind anything even closely associated with Democrat or Republican if you hold the same standard?

It's not about getting behind "something closely associated" with a party; it's about supporting any party in a blanket fashion. I think doing so is foolish. And getting behind the Libertarian Party is no different in that sense.

[Velokid1]

The opinions I am seeing are primarily in the comments section of online newspapers and letters to the editor. I realize that's not a scientific census of Libertarians but it's all I got. Other than Steve on IAC, that is.

Are there really education hating people? If so, maybe they feel this education system has been hijacked and isn't any good.

Thank you- my point precisely. It is wrong for someone to hate education and the educational system simply because it has been hijacked. It's like hating a robbery victim because they've been victimized.

But anyways, if you don't want to get behind Libertarians because some people perhaps are "Many racist, paranoid, greedy, gun-crazy, education-hating", then I don't see how you could ever vote Democrat or Republican or how you could ever get behind anything even closely associated with Democrat or Republican if you hold the same standard?

It's not about getting behind "something closely associated" with a party; it's about supporting any party in a blanket fashion. I think doing so is foolish. And getting behind the Libertarian Party is no different in that sense.

[BellePlaine]

Velo,

At one point you were a RP supporter? What happened to spoil him on you? I ask for the sake of debate because you have (I think) changed you mind; I wonder what I can learn from your RP journey so-to-speak?

Chris

[steve74baywin]

The opinions I am seeing are primarily in the comments section of online newspapers and letters to the editor. I realize that's not a scientific census of Libertarians but it's all I got. Other than Steve on IAC, that is.

Thanks for sharing where you are getting that from. I may have to look into it.
Go with what "Steve on IAC" says, you can't go wrong, trust me and him.

Are there really education hating people? If so, maybe they feel this education system has been hijacked and isn't any good.

Thank you- my point precisely. It is wrong for someone to hate education and the educational system simply because it has been hijacked. It's like hating a robbery victim because they've been victimized.

I see your point, it would be hard to know the minds of these people, maybe they have other reasons like me, maybe they understand that you will more than likely always end up with a perverted money controlled system if you let a government that is controlled and influenced by the same create the system. Hard to say if they understand all that.

But anyways, if you don't want to get behind Libertarians because some people perhaps are "Many racist, paranoid, greedy, gun-crazy, education-hating", then I don't see how you could ever vote Democrat or Republican or how you could ever get behind anything even closely associated with Democrat or Republican if you hold the same standard?

It's not about getting behind "something closely associated" with a party; it's about supporting any party in a blanket fashion. I think doing so is foolish. And getting behind the Libertarian Party is no different in that sense.

I understand again. I hate using any word or label, mostly because I see in history how they always change over time, and even at a given time they mean different things to different people. Right now though, at least the written down principles of the Libertarian Party I agree with, we haven't had a chance to see if they will hold true to it or not yet. My belief's, like most Libertarians should be, are based on principles that are simple and flow forth natural or logically, based on Liberty principles and Natural Law. (the rights, force, in charge of oneself stuff) So if the party changes, I still know what is up, as long as I don't get hit on the head or become too old and senile...