Stinky Obama Plan

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Stinky Obama Plan

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:42 pm

This seems to be the problem, we are trying to save something that needs to go down. I highlight with bold.
Colin


Obama Punishes Responsible Parties
Wednesday, February 18, 2009,
by cmartenson

This is a headline that I have long been waiting to see, because without accountability at every level, a society is a weak shadow of what it can and should be.

Unfortunately, the responsible parties I am referring to have never committed any crime, nor do they deserve to be punished.

I am among them. Perhaps you are as well.

If you did not buy more house than you could afford, or never issued a loan to a party that could (obviously and predictably) not repay that loan, then you just got punished.

Here’s the data:

Obama Plans $75 Billion Outlay to Fight Foreclosures

Published: February 18, 2009

Seeking to stabilize the foundering housing market, President Obama is offering a plan to help as many as nine million families refinance their mortgages or avoid foreclosure, according to a summary released by the White House on Wednesday morning.

The plan, which is more ambitious than expected, would spend $75 billion to help keep as many as four million families in their homes, and would help as many as five million more refinance their mortgages to take advantage of lower interest rates.

Okay, there are so many beliefs and opinions wrapped into those opening salvos that I feel I must step in and expose them. One thing that I do in conference, and in the Crash Course, is distinguish between facts, opinions, and beliefs. This article, which comes from the front page of the New York Times will be absorbed by many as “fact.” Let’s be more careful.

“Seeking to stabilize the foundering housing market…” is a statement of opinion, not fact. While this sounds laudable and worthy as a goal, there can be no doubt that any plan that funnels money to homeowners is really going to end up in mortgage companies and banks, and very rapidly at that. So it could just as easily be framed as, “Seeking to stabilize the foundering mortgage and banking businesses that made extremely foolish loans…”. The difference between the way that the NYT framed it and the way that I did does not reflect a difference over facts, only opinion.
Saying, “…help as many as nine million families refinance their mortgages or avoid foreclosure…” is also presenting something as fact that does not even stand up to the slightest scrutiny. The $75 billion price tag divided by 9 million gives us a value of $8,333.33 for each of the nine million homes. There is simply no possible way that $8,333 each is going to make the difference between 9 million people keeping or losing their homes. It might if that was applied to this year’s balance gap, but over the life of the loan? No possible way.
But it’s not just the NYT that is mis-representing the issue. Obama said:

“The plan not only helps responsible homeowners on the verge of defaulting, but prevents neighborhoods and communities from being pulled over the edge too. It will prevent the worst consequences of this crisis from wreaking even greater havoc on the economy. And by bringing down the foreclosure rate, it will help to shore up housing prices for everyone.”

He can wrap this with as many words as he wants but the plain facts are that only people in trouble with their mortgages get any handouts here. People who are not delinquent, or who are perhaps renting, only get the opportunity to pay for the mistakes of others.

Politically, this is a great plan. Good sound bites and it looks like action. Also, roughly 9 million votes are secured for the next election. Two thumbs up in this regard.

Economically, it stinks. This is throwing good money after bad, and, worse, by seeking to “shore up sinking house prices,” it betrays a complete ignorance of the actual root of the problem. Blaming sinking housing prices for the fix we are in is equivalent to blaming the car for the drunk driving wreck. If Obama were to craft a similar program for drunk drivers, it would include new cars for any that happened to wreck their own. The problem is not that house prices are sinking, it’s that they got too high to sustain. It was a bubble for goodness sake! That’s the very definition of a bubble. Any and all attempts to “shore up” bubble prices is a doomed effort that will assuredly squander both additional capital and valuable time.

Morally, it is a complete disaster. The clear implication here for every sentient person is that it pays to be reckless. Moral hazard is written all over this one. I can easily envision millions of people arriving at the same conclusion: “I need to stop paying my mortgage right away so that I qualify for a handout!” It’s entirely sensible, and I would seriously consider this option if I had a mortgage and little or no equity in the house. As it is, I am a prudent renter who saw the bubble for what it was and will now pay a double price for having been so prescient. First, I will have to endure government-subsidized house prices set above market rates, and I will have to pay for the reckless actions of house owners and lenders who behaved recklessly. This is no way to set an example and is not how I wish my country to be run.

Taken together, these actions represent a near-total lack of vision and leadership.

Here’s one example that should illustrate exactly why this plan is DOA.

Feb. 18 (Bloomberg) -- It has taken Susan Erb just three years to see the value of her Merced, California, home plunge by more than half to $350,000. Next month, her mortgage payment jumps 20 percent to $3,321 and she knows she can’t afford it. Her bank won’t rework the loan unless she stops paying altogether.

Think about a house underwater by $350,000. Think about a monthly payment of $3,321. Now join these to the total $8,333 offered by the Obama plan. How far will that $8,333 go? About 8 months of payments is my assessment and then the house will still be more than a third of a million underwater.

The reason I sometimes despair at ever finding our way equitably through this mess is captured by this quote (from same link as above):

Rina Serrano, 35, an after-school program supervisor for the Merced County Office of Education, may lose her job next year due to budget cuts. The value of her house, built by Calabasas, California-based Ryland Group Inc. in the Bellevue Ranch development, fell by at least a third since she purchased it in 2007. Her husband’s cabinetmaking business is down by half.

“Nobody has given us any options, but my feeling is there should be some assistance,” said Serrano, 35, a mother of four. The couple took out a 30-year fixed loan and aren’t behind on payments but they are underwater by about $70,000.

Here’s a person who has not yet missed a payment, but whose house is worth less than her mortgage, who wants “some assistance.” Where you might think, “Be more careful next time!” there are many who simply want to be relieved of the consequences of their poor decisions and too many politicans who are eager to try.

And who can blame them? I too would like to have every bad decision I ever made paid for by someone else but I am also mature enough to know that this is not a realistic way to approach life.

So there it is. If you have been responsible, you have just been punished. And you know what? Nobody can possibly blame you for deciding that being responsible is for suckers.

It’s not a stretch to imagine that a few folks will even come to the conclusion that hard work and prudence are no longer the core values of our country.

Does the current administration really want to foster this sort of a mindset right at the outset of a nasty recession/depression?

It would seem that the answer is “yes.”
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Post by turk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:54 pm


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Post by vdubyah73 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:51 am

So I'm paying my Mortgage on time and have no issues with my mortgage holder. The houses on either side of me get foreclosed and sell for even less than they are worth now. My house is still worth more than I paid and still worth more than I owe. The two foreclosures on my street just hammered me and now I'm top heavy... and that's my fault?
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Post by denjohn » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:09 pm

What does 'top heavy' mean?
And I don't understand who is saying that anything is your fault. :scratch:
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:05 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:now I'm top heavy... and that's my fault?
No, so don't be too quick to blame the homeowners on either side of you. There is blame, however, for those who set up the subprime racket, and lobbied for dismantling the sensible regulations we once had, and the odious credit card interest schemes, and yet I see people like Rush Limbaugh pounce on "greedy" homeowners who did not quite grasp the bizantine mortgage rules as sold to them by unscrupulous crooks. Meanwhile, the crooks are defended as "American Entrepreneurs" or the "This Is How Business Works" or "They made their money fair and square, you just want to take it from them" and that cannot be further from the truth.

You haven't been harmed yet, Bill. Others have been. Show some empathy. And please cast any blame in the right direction.
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Post by skin daddio » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:19 pm

dear fellow americans, [especially the dickhead screaming for the tv camera in turk's link] now that we're once again looking at all sides of the orwellian musical chairs nature of home ownership we should appreciate it, or not, for what it is. i own homes so i can make pots - so a landlord can't change that fact under my feet. consequently, i have to be a landlord and it sucks but i make so everyone is happy and having fun. thankfully my tenants are hip. on the bright side i get my kilns and a stream of customers, and make changes to the homes that would be unlikely if i were a renter. that's the only upside. security in home ownership is a roulette wheel and its long been beyond what i alone control as long as i am ball and chained to it. in our life and times, the market being what it is, one should expect the worse every cycle. in other words sell your house to the next buyer at the right time, or ride it out and quit complaining. is not house property like a car or a widget? buy low, sell high, or sit there and stfu. pay your cable and magazine subscriptions, and be thankful you have those lovely choices. people who get into a game and complain when they start losing are pussy sports. in the end, its not the value in your property - its the greenbacks IN HAND. when did that change? this is not a nation of horse traders, just a cackle of whiners waiting for walmart products and pricing, and marginalizing granny to the nursing home. make yer own damn pizza, quit waiting for delivery. where's the sacks.. of flour? imo, if you lost value in your house blame yourself, or enjoy it. that a man's home is his castle is some banker's or real estate broker's, or both.. caldwell banker's stupid illusion. how much can one complain about the government's actions. you don't make the government your dealer - wouldn't even make them a partner. you make them a player and play alongside. what else would one do with self-centered egomaniacal millionaire politicos?

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Post by turk » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:22 pm

Sheesh. The holy than thou speak. Not skin daddio. I didn't read your post yet. I think what Bill means is the policies are now, again, doing the same thing they encouraged to create the bubble, if not worse. So he will lose as a result.

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Post by dingo » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:57 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
vdubyah73 wrote:now I'm top heavy... and that's my fault?
No, so don't be too quick to blame the homeowners on either side of you. There is blame, however, for those who set up the subprime racket, and lobbied for dismantling the sensible regulations we once had, and the odious credit card interest schemes, and yet I see people like Rush Limbaugh pounce on "greedy" homeowners who did not quite grasp the bizantine mortgage rules as sold to them by unscrupulous crooks.
ill bet that most homeowners who were riding the wild bubble hysteria didnt care to know about the fine print..while things were in their favor...now that they aint, it must be someone elses fault. Im sure there were/are unscrupulous crooks all the way up the chain, but they exist, as does Las vegas, on the backs of the gamblers. If yopu own a credit card(s)..have you checked the fine print ?? Its probably not much diffferent
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:36 pm

dingo wrote:ill bet that most homeowners who were riding the wild bubble hysteria didnt care to know about the fine print..while things were in their favor...now that they aint, it must be someone elses fault.
This may be where we diverge in our view of human beings. I see people every day in every walk of life, and I choose not to disparage them. I have bought or leased new cars with a little excitement in my time. The fine print got a little blearying, and I did trust the essential goodness of my salespeople. And I still trust that most people I meet are not that different from me. Of course they wanted a new house, they were not making a reckless decision half so much as a hopeful decision. But the people who KNEW the rules were not being forthcoming about the exploding interest payments, they had their own motives. So look at the exchange:
Hopeful vs Greedy
I refuse to descend into the world of Rush Limbaugh (who excoriates drug addicts as scum while he gets his own through setting up his housekeeper) that thinks home-buyers are truly part of the moral problem that has brought this Nation to her knees. And that loudmouth little turd on the trading floor who is the darling of the right-wing (no less than Joe the Plumber another liar sob propped up by the Right) who grandly hollers, "do you all want to pay for those dead-beat losers' mortgages?" well he is another person I would not want to have to spend time with. The rules that were set up to allow the sub-prime feeding frenzy did not benefit anyone half so much as the pigs who got rich off of blatantly false paperwork. The hopeful homeowner gets sucked into the maelstrom because of hope. The bankers who got rich off it, knoew better in a qualitative way, and their moral shortcomings are of a whole higher order than the PEOPLE with families who are suffering as a result, like hopeless homelessness, where is the banker suffering?

I am amazed, but should not be, at the lack of simple humanity and empathy that would at least help us solve some of these problems in a humane way.
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Post by covelo » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:28 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Where is the banker suffering?

I am amazed, but should not be, at the lack of simple humanity and empathy that would at least help us solve some of these problems in a humane way.
Colin
Don't worry. The bankers are suffering. Maybe not as much as they should but nonetheless. While the math of Obama's mortgage plan may not appear to add up, it certainly should help. Whether it will be enough depends entirely on the assumptions you make and we don't know yet how it will work out.

A possible example. Say you have three homeowners on the same block. All three have a mortgage they cannot afford. One is under water and desperate and about to foreclose. The other two are just hanging on but would end up under water if their neighbor foreclosed. Say you give the bank $24k to modify the loan of the family that is about to foreclose. In return the bank turns a $200k interest-only ARM loan into a $180k 30-year fixed loan. The monthly payments go down enough to prevent the foreclosure. This in turn prevents the value of the other two houses from declining. Their owners can now refinance to a lower fixed rate loan (no government subsidy needed). This is how you can keep three families in their homes for $8000 each.

I completely agree with your call for empathy for misguided homeowners. Many of them just didn't have the wherewithal to understand what they got into. You should have seen some of the offers we got when we sold our house early last year. People were told that if they didn't get in right away they would never be able to afford the American dream.
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Post by ruckman101 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:34 pm

It's all my fault. I knew that the moment I bought a house the market would collapse, yet if I waited to buy a house until after the market collapsed I would still be waiting and the economy would be as healthy as it ever was.


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Post by turk » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:37 pm

Do these folks have anything to do with the problem? Could I, a renter, with a low income, go apply to them for "help"? Am I racist to ask this question? I admit I know little about how the mortgage banking system works but this is a question I'd like to know the answer to. How were people "duped"? That is my question. No judgements against anyone who wants to buy a house.

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Post by RSorak 71Westy » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:21 pm

How were people "duped"?
They weren't duped they were swindled. this how/why.....People w/ crappy credit could not get a normal 30 yr. fixed rate morg. but could get a crappy ARM loan on which the lenders made a lot more $$$. So they did and here we are.
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Post by pj » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:00 am

Wow Rick, that's quite a leap you've taken there on why people take out various mortgages. Not everyone who took out an arm had bad credit. There were and still are folks who have an arm (me for one) and use it in a financial plan that works. As an aside, ARMS also adjust down, so there is a risk taken by the lender on an ARM. Though I will admit that most times the ARM is an upside vehicle for the lender.

I work in the mortgage industry and the average loan doc package runs about 100 pages. In those 100 pages there are three very important documents. The first is the note, second is Deed of trust or mortgage and the third is the truth in lending form. ( I will now give you a minute to go find your copies) You do have your copies don't you?

1.The note is normally a two to three page document and on it you'll find:

A. Your loan term
B. your total principal and interest payment taken out over the term of your note.
C. The term of your note
D. If you are on an ARM then you'll also find the terms of that ARM
E. You'll also find the grace period to send your payment in (normally 15 days)

2. The deed of trust is your pledge to pay back the loan and it describes in great detail what is expected of you and what could happen if you default. This is the document that the Sheriff uses when one gets foreclosed on.

3. The TIL is what you can use to compare apples and oranges and is required by law to be given to you before you sign for the loan.

A. You will find the APR, which takes your various loan costs and your note rate and gives you a figure to compare other offers against. As an example: your note rate is 4.75% and you have closing costs of $5000.00 on a $300,000 loan your APR would be somewhere around 4.95%. The inverse of that would be if you had no closing costs then your APR would be 4.75%. This is what you use to compare loans when shopping.

B. It also lays out every payment you will have and what the total you'll pay back after the term expires and you burn your mortgage.. A fixed loan for example would have 359 of $2000.00 and 1 of $1995.00. Where an ARM will have a series of numbers by year This is also where you see if your lender was telling you the truth about the loan being fixed or an ARM.

C. Also at the bottom the form will tell you if you have a prepayment penalty.

This is probably more than you wanted to know. Though the next time you go loan shopping if you'll pay close attention to these 3 forms, I guarantee you will not be one of those folks who are screaming how they were screwed. as the old adage goes: Forewarned is forearmed.

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Post by VWBusrepairman » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:50 pm

I'm sick of hearing about the people needing bailed out. I'm making my house payment, keeping bills paid on time, and I think that if people need help they should maybe go apply for another job. Now that I'm trying to sell my house, I cannot because no one has any money, so I'm stuck here until some miracle happens. People need to learn to manage better and live within their means is what needs to happen.

I did just get a call from someone wanting to see it, so maybe this is the one!
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