still no start ...UPDATED... Starts & Dies...**NOW RUNNI

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:15 pm

"79 westy with '77 F.I. installed. Bus will not start without fiddling with the AFM. I thought I had it with a new TTS, but that was not it, oh well...now I have a new spare part.

What is going on is the CSV is not getting power. Colin and I troubleshot this last year before I moved, and he was thinking that it was a wiring problem. So...should I start with the power wire from the starter to the double relay and keep following the circuirt?

Best Regards,
John

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:13 am

Yes. Do you know if the fuel pump is getting power while you are cranking the engine? I'm guessing that's why it won't start until you fiddle with the AFM.

But the first thing to check is the connection on the starter that runs to the double relay. It should have power when the starter is cranking.

Post by **Amskeptic** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:52 am

I believe that is a red/white wire, John. Git on it, boy, time's a wasting. Out voltage to CSV is in-tandem to fuel pump. I can't remember if there is an internal buss in the relay. There is a diode in the relay to prevent the AFM supply of voltage to the fuel pump from feeding back to the CSV.
Colin

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:56 am

77...the fuel pump is a brand new unit, and if I close the pump contact in the afm, it runs. If I pump the gas/move the afm wiper and crack the throttle, it will start. Colin and I looked at this at the close of our days last year, and the fuel pump was not the issue at that time.

Colin...I am trying to git on it, but so far not so good. I do remember form last year that the beginning of this prob was there was no power to the csv, and we just ran out of time. I am going to get a new battery, and re-test per bentley in conjunction with the circuit continunity testing. Send me your good vibes!!

Thanks for the help fellas!
Best Regards,
John

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:36 pm

Well, if you've got a line on a spare, known-good double relay, throw it in there and see if it makes any difference.

It could save you a lot of troubleshooting time.

If it acts the same way, then I'm guessing that the red/white wire from the starter to the double relay is broken somewhere along the line.

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:34 pm

Today I found that the double relay was not getting out on terminal 86. I dug out a spare and it has power on term 86.

I also removed the F.I. harness and discovered a previous repair on the wiring was wired wrong (used harness). I corrected the wiring and hit the key. The bus fired up and ran great for a minute, then it started running rough and then died.

I discovered that I forgot to plug in temp sensor 2. I fixed that and tried to start the bus again. no luck. Back to below square 1. At least I used to be able to fiddle with the AFM and throttle to get it to run, and then it ran great. Oh...giving it gas does not even raise the rpm now, and I think that I smelled gas like it may have flooded.

Colin and I took it for a fun drive last year...WTF! I gues I will start over tomorrow, I just needed to vent a little as I am very bitter at the moment.

Best Regards,
John

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:37 pm

Ok...I am back with a positive mind set now. We took our boys for an outing in our trusty '73 bus and took a looong break from the '70's problems.

I dug out the F.I. harnes that was on our bus when we bought it. The current harness we are using because the org harness had become very brittle and wires broke in two when I removed the engine.

Here is what I found on the org harness for wiring:
double relay term 86 went to ecm term 4 and tts term g (power side)
tts term g went to csv neg term
tts term w went to csv pos term

Here are the differences on the current harness:
tts term g goes to csv pos term
tts term w goes to csv neg term

Can someone please let me know which wiring is the correct way?

Thanks & Best Regards,
John

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:35 am

Aside from the wiring confusion I am faced with, I seem to have a short somewhere. The current track betwen term 86a and 86, inside the d-relay are opened(a break in the path)
Thanks!,
John

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:05 am

Ok I repaired the broken current tracks in bout of my double relays.

There is something weird with the relay's power plug wiring:

Term 88z reads continunity to both the pos and neg posts of the battery

Term 88y does as well as it connects to 88z

Term 88d has continunity to the neg post as well

So what is up??!!

How about some of your f.i. gurus giving me some help...please

Best regards,
John

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:58 pm

It appears thet my internal repair of the double relay workes, as is my wiring configuration.

The CSV has power and the TTS cuts off the power in 7 seconds.

Now the bus will fire up and die after 1 second.
John

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:06 pm

soulful66 wrote: Term 88z reads continunity to both the pos and neg posts of the battery
Term 88y does as well as it connects to 88z
Term 88d has continunity to the neg post as well
So what is up??!!

Are you doing these tests with the battery terminals connected? That can give misleading results. Disconnect the negative battery terminal.

Also, your continuity checks may be reading across a load, like the CSV. Unplug the coil, CSV, and Aux Air regulator if doing continuity (versus voltage) tests.

If your engine starts, runs for a second, and dies, it sounds like the contacts in the AFM are not taking over the duty of supplying the fuel pump with power after the starter is released, or the portion of the double relay that is supposed to click "on" when you turn the ignition on is not working.

Finally, I don't think the CSV cares about polarity. As long as there is 12V across its terminals, it should work, so the wiring differences between the harnesses shouldn't matter.

BTW, this reply in no way attempts to claim that I'm an FI guru!!!

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:24 am

vwlover77 wrote:
soulful66 wrote: BTW, this reply in no way attempts to claim that I'm an FI guru!!!

LOL!! Well considering my knowledge base on the darn f.i., you are highly skilled.

My next check is the inj & afm.

Thanks & Regards,
John

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:33 pm

I just tried the tape between the contacts and it had no effect either worse or better.

I did remove the s-boot, and have not found any cracks in it.

I wired the fuel pump straight to to ign coil and that made no difference as well.

I tried an afm on loan fron a friend back in Indiana, but it made no difference as well. In the last year I installed a new fuel pump, vacuum line, ign coil, spark plugs and wires, air filter, series resistor, fuel lines, cleaned tank, aug reg boot, csv, tts, double relay, and fuel hoses. At this point I can no longer afford this fuel injection sytm. Maybe a weber at this point is the best course of action.
Best Regards,
john

Post by **Amskeptic** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:50 pm

soulful66 wrote: At this point I can no longer afford this fuel injection system. Maybe a weber at this point is the best course of action.
Best Regards,
john

Can you hang on til I get there?
Colin

soulful66 · Post by **soulful66** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:40 pm

Colin,
I appears that at this point in time, I have no choice but to wait until you can appear here. Although I know that you will probably resolve the bus' issuses in short order...thus sending me into a complete and embarsing hissy fit/breakdown.

I will soldier on and keep trying to solve this problem in the meantime. I plan on reassembling the removed parts, and staring over the troubleshooting...begining with the ign sytm.

Thanks & Regards,
John

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

still no start ...UPDATED... Starts & Dies...**NOW RUNNI

still no start ...UPDATED... Starts & Dies...**NOW RUNNI