Ethanol

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Ethanol

Postby retro1302 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:08 pm

I just replaced a leaking section of fuel feed line on my Triumph Spitfire. The Triumph forum guys blame the hose deterioration on ethanol blended fuel. I blame it on a 32 year old section of hose that reached retirement time.

Question: Is ethanol an issue on our German vehicles? I would think it is a good idea to replace old hoses anyway and the current shelf items are ethanol tolerant. There are also additives available  to counteract any problems. Just wondering if anyone seen any problems with our VWs.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Amskeptic » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:32 pm

retro1302 wrote:I just replaced a leaking section of fuel feed line on my Triumph Spitfire. The Triumph forum guys blame the hose deterioration on ethanol blended fuel. I blame it on a 32 year old section of hose that reached retirement time.

Question: Is ethanol an issue on our German vehicles? I would think it is a good idea to replace old hoses anyway and the current shelf items are ethanol tolerant. There are also additives available  to counteract any problems. Just wondering if anyone seen any problems with our VWs.


Yes, ethanol can cause premature aging of older formula hoses, Get good modern ethanol-resistant hoses.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Bleyseng » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:12 am

The government here is starting a Ethanol project first by planting acres and acres of sugar cane. Then a plant to refine the sugar cane into ethanol to mix with gasoline. Hmm, they don't make gasoline here so this should be interesting.

I say its another boondoggle that will benefit a very few people and make them really rich.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Amskeptic » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:19 am

Bleyseng wrote:The government here is starting a Ethanol project first by planting acres and acres of sugar cane. Then a plant to refine the sugar cane into ethanol to mix with gasoline. Hmm, they don't make gasoline here so this should be interesting.

I say its another boondoggle that will benefit a very few people and make them really rich.


Brazil seems to have done well with sugar cane ethanol. Better than our corn ethanol both environmentally and commercially . . .
Now, let's save this thread with a good technically relevant tie in back to air-cooled Volkswagens . . . you first  :flower:
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Bleyseng » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:11 pm

So back to the question, I switched out all my FI rubber hoses to the new Gates  FI hose (3RJ09 or whatever it is) that is more resistant to the ethanol 2 years ago. Since my VW sit for 6mos at a time (with Stabil in the gas) I will probably switch them out this summer. Hose is cheap while a fire isn't. Before driving em I do a check with the engine idling and a strong flashlight flexing the lines to check for cracks and leaks. Yes, I did find one on the 914 this last summer on 2 year old hose so the new stuff will crack too. I think its a combination of ethanol and the high heat from laying across the engine that does it.
I hate ethanol in the gas as its just to support the corn industry in my opinion. New cars smog controls are great!
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Re: Ethanol

Postby hambone » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:38 pm

I have noticed that the cut ends of fuel line seems to age much faster than the internals, with cracks appearing in a year or so.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Amskeptic » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:26 pm

hambone wrote:I have noticed that the cut ends of fuel line seems to age much faster than the internals, with cracks appearing in a year or so.


If you use genuine greasy grease when installing the hose, the cracks will be much less likely.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Bleyseng » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:54 pm

Greasy grease? I'll give that a try as yes, the hose seems to crack at the ends where its pushed on and clamped.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Reid » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:45 pm

I replaced hoses on my '78 camper last January with hose that I picked up from the Porsche dealer. The German hose lasted about three months before it started leaking. One piece actually split down the side. After replacing the hose, I checked the fuel pressure with a decent (OTC) gauge, and just left it attached to the rail since I never drive the bus. It only took about a week for the fuel to eat through the pressure tester's red hose. Weird.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Amskeptic » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:16 pm

Reid wrote:I replaced hoses on my '78 camper last January with hose that I picked up from the Porsche dealer. The German hose lasted about three months before it started leaking. One piece actually split down the side. After replacing the hose, I checked the fuel pressure with a decent (OTC) gauge, and just left it attached to the rail since I never drive the bus. It only took about a week for the fuel to eat through the pressure tester's red hose. Weird.


We have to be sophisticated consumers! Don't think the parts department would have any problem dumping old old old stock on you in an effort to clean up their shelves.  I got fresh F.I. Choline 7.3mm fuel hose with the orange lettering from Main Source Germany in Alpharetta Georgia shortly after i brough the BobD bus down from Chicago, and it has been absolutely fine in the baking desert heat and two years and 40,000 miles.

I got skrood, however, in El Paso TX when I bought a brand new fanbelt for Chloe. Snapped in half nine days later because of dry rot.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby luftvagon » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:34 pm

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Re: Ethanol

Postby luftvagon » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:40 pm

"By the mid-1980s, over 100 new corn alcohol production plants are built and over a billion US gallons of ethanol for fuel were sold per year. The ethanol program is controversial for several reasons, not the least of which was that the ethanol industry was dominated by one company – Archer Daniels Midland of Peoria, Ill."

It's probably not ethanol on its own, but other additional detergents they put into new fuels.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Reid » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:37 pm

I heard something on NPR today about a fight over E15. AAA is arguing against the sale.
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Amskeptic » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:50 pm

Reid wrote:I heard something on NPR today about a fight over E15. AAA is arguing against the sale.


AAA is not legitimate in my book. They are a special interest group in the pursuit of profit. I would like to see what the SAE people say. Their claims against ethanol are so heavily biased that they offer two directly contradictory probabilities:
increased NOX emissions (a consequence of high combustion temps)
decreased performance (due to the waayyy lower BTUs and cooler burn of alcohol)
So which is it?
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Re: Ethanol

Postby Reid » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:14 pm

AAA Calls To Suspend Sale Of New Ethanol Fuel

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Published: December 04, 2012
by Sonari Glinton

AAA has warned against potential damage that a new blend of gasoline could do to some engines. And the warning has started a fight over renewable fuels and the future of what we put in our gas tanks.

The fuel is called E15 — named for the percentage of ethanol in the blend. Most of the gas that's sold in the U.S. has about 10 percent ethanol in it.

The Environmental Protection Agency has certified that all vehicles from 2001 and newer can run on E15. But, says Eric Evarts with Consumer Reports, many automakers "have said that they will not honor warrantees for cars running on E15, even among the cars that the EPA says can run it."

That's because many automakers are worried that the new mix of fuel can damage the fuel lines in your car over time.

"We're not opposed to ethanol, we're not opposed to ethanol being added to gasoline. Our concern is that the E15 blend is one that has the potential to do damage to people's vehicles if they inadvertently put it in their gas tank," says AAA CEO Robert Darbelnet.

AAA wants to suspend sales of E15 gasoline. The group surveyed its members, and 95 percent of them didn't know what it was.

"We are opposed to E15 being made available to consumers who have not been adequately informed of the consequences of using the product, nor have they been adequately informed of whether or not they could put it in their vehicle without risking violating their warranty," Darbelnet says.

Bob Dinneen, CEO of the Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol industry trade group, points out that E15 is available in only a handful of gas stations. He says there's plenty of time to educate drivers about the new fuel.

"I think AAA has been sidling up to the big oil companies a little too much, and their concerns about E15 are completely misplaced," Dinneen says. "It's really about the future and other advanced biofuels that, if demonstrated to be viable commercially, can take not 10 percent of the barrel, but a third or 40 or 50 percent of the barrel. That's what this is about."

Meanwhile, the EPA says it's working to let consumers know which cars can and cannot use E15.

But unless laws change, it's still on the way to gas stations soon. [Copyright 2012 National Public Radio]

TRANSCRIPT:
AUDIE CORNISH, HOST:

From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Audie Cornish.

MELISSA BLOCK, HOST:

And I'm Melissa Block.

You're probably used to seeing certain options at the gas pump. There are high and low octanes, and there is diesel. Well, now, you might find a new blend of gasoline called E15. And AAA is sending a warning to motorists about it. The group says that new gas could do damage to your engine. That warning is part of a fight over renewable fuels and the future of what we put in our gas tanks. Here's NPR's Sonari Glinton.

SONARI GLINTON, BYLINE: Most of the gas that's sold in the U.S. has ethanol in it, which right now is made up mostly of corn. When you go to the pump to fill up, it makes up about 10 percent of the blend. We call it gas. Fuel geeks call it E10. That's what we have now. The new stuff is called E15. And you guessed it, it's about 15 percent ethanol.

ERIC EVARTS: Essentially, the EPA has certified all vehicles from the 2001 model year and newer to run on E15.

GLINTON: That's Eric Evarts. He is with Consumer Reports. He's going to help me sort this out. Now, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the EPA, says you can put E15 in any car built after 2001. There is a but though.

EVARTS: A lot of automakers who have said that they will not honor warranties for cars running on E15 even among the cars that the EPA says can run it.

GLINTON: That's because many automakers are worried that the new mix of fuel can damage the fuel lines in your car over time, in steps AAA, the motor club.

BOB DARBELNET: I'm Bob Darbelnet, president and CEO of AAA. We're not opposed to ethanol. We're not opposed to ethanol being added to gasoline. Our concern is that the E15 blend is one that has the potential to do damage to people's vehicles if they inadvertently put it in their gas tank.

GLINTON: AAA wants to suspend sales of E15 gasoline. The group surveyed its members and 95 percent of them didn't know what it was. Again, Bob Darbelnet.

DARBELNET: We are opposed to E15 being made available to consumers who have not been adequately informed of the consequences of using the product nor have they been adequately informed of whether or not they could put in their vehicle without risking violating their warranty.

BOB DINNEEN: I think AAA has been saddling up to the big oil companies a little too much, and their concerns about E15 are completely misplaced.

GLINTON: Bob Dinneen is CEO of the Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol industry trade group. Dinneen points out that E15 is available in only a handful of gas stations. He says there is plenty of time to educate drivers about the new fuel.

DINNEEN: It's really about the future and other advanced biofuels that if demonstrated to be viable commercially can take not 10 percent of the barrel but a third, a 40 or 50 percent of the barrel. That's what this is about.

GLINTON: Meanwhile, the EPA says it's working to let consumers know which cars can and cannot use E15. But unless laws change, it's still on its way to gas stations soon. Sonari Glinton, NPR News. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.

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