Doesn't Start, Just Clacks

[whc03grady]

We took the bus camping and had no real problems. He started up fine the next morning, so we took him on a 25-mile trip which included some climbing and interstate driving. It was in the upper 80s or lower 90s and he got plenty warm. We stopped for at least an hour at our destination. Comes time to leave, and he won't start. The dash lights come on, the fuel pump runs, but it's just "clack" back at the starter. With the help of a guy who "used to own one of these so I know how it is" we push started him. After maybe half an hour at the next stop he wouldn't start again, but I'd parked him facing downhill to mitigate the pushing. He ran fine.
We parked him at home and I thought an overnight sit would be plenty, but this morning it's just 'clack'.

When Colin was here all the terminals and grounds got a good cleaning, so I don't think that's an issue. I will check the battery voltage as it sits and report back.

My questions.

Short-term: I need to drive this car about 250 miles early next week and don't want to fiddle with too much before then as any screw-ups would seriously compromise my plans for this trip. That is, I'm not looking for a long term fix right now (unless it's ridiculously simple). During this trip I will be accompanied only by my 4.5 year-old, and I don't think she's ready to run the clutch as I push the bus, and I doubt she can push it fast enough for the purpose either.
So, what is the 'proper' method for jump-starting the car at the starter? Is it: key on, bus in neutral, e-brake on, span the two big bolts on starter? If not, what is it?

Long-term: How do I fix this hot start issue altogether? The bus already has the relay thing back there as advised by Muir, but that installation predates my acquaintance with the bus, meaning it's at least a 21 year-old fix.

[SlowLane]

Since you and Colin have gone through the electrical connectons already, I'd have to guess at a tired battery. Do you know how old it is? Can you check the electrolyte levels? Can you swap in a known good battery when it's refusing to start and see if it cranks using that one?

Your 21-year-old hot-start relay may be due for replacement, nothing lasts forever. But check the battery first.

In addition to a battery voltage check, I'll suggest a check for parasitic current drain when the car is off. Just use your DVM on the 20A setting (use the 20A jack) and put it in-line between the battery positive post and the battery clamp (ie. disconnect the battery clamp from the battery post). If you have more than, say, 50 mA drawing, then you should start looking for possible parasites, like a light that's staying on when it shouldn't.

So, what is the 'proper' method for jump-starting the car at the starter? Is it: key on, bus in neutral, e-brake on, span the two big bolts on starter?

Aside from the real possibility of killing yourself with this procedure, I don't think this is the problem you're having. Jumpering the big starter bolts is a workaround for a mis-behaving solenoid. Since yours is going "clack", it sounds like the soleniod is trying, but there just isn't enough oomph left in the battery to turn the starter.

[whc03grady]

Since you and Colin have gone through the electrical connectons already, I'd have to guess at a tired battery. Do you know how old it is? Can you check the electrolyte levels? Can you swap in a known good battery when it's refusing to start and see if it cranks using that one?

The battery was purchased new in February 2009. Since then, it has gone through long periods of dormancy. Recently I slow-charged it to 13.4v. It's a cheapo so I can't check the electrolyte levels in any non-intrusive way.

In addition to a battery voltage check, I'll suggest a check for parasitic current drain when the car is off. Just use your DVM on the 20A setting (use the 20A jack) and put it in-line between the battery positive post and the battery clamp (ie. disconnect the battery clamp from the battery post). If you have more than, say, 50 mA drawing, then you should start looking for possible parasites, like a light that's staying on when it shouldn't.

I'll try that.

[satchmo]

How old is your starter? If your bus already has the hot start relay installed, someone already had problems with the starter. That's why they put the relay in.

I had a similar problem with my 73. Starter worked okay when cold, then not at all after driving an hour or so. Hot start relay fixed it for a while, then the relay started blowing fuses when hot. Check the fuse on your hot start relay to make sure that isn't the problem. A new fuse will help you start when cold, but probably won't when the starter is hot.

The only fix is a new starter (or a good used one). Total R&R time: 15-30 minutes. It is pretty easy as long as you: 1) remember to disconnect the battery negative before messing with the starter terminals/wires and 2) remember the correct terminal for each wire when re-installing. And if you put in a new starter, you can probably remove the hot start relay.

In the mean time, make sure you have a down hill run-out for the bus when you park. Put the transmission in 2nd gear with ignition on and pop the clutch once you are rolling. That should get you started. Enlist the help of curious and helpful onlookers at gas stations if you don't have a slope to use. I drove from the middle of Wyoming to the middle of Iowa doing this without much trouble. It is a little embarrassing, but people already look at you funny just for driving an old VW camper bus.

Tim

[whc03grady]

How old is your starter?

It's old, but it's a Type III starter and therefore not original to the bus.

Check the fuse on your hot start relay to make sure that isn't the problem. A new fuse will help you start when cold, but probably won't when the starter is hot.

If the relay blew a fuse, wouldn't that mean it'd not start at all, ever, warm or cold (until you changed the fuse)?

The only fix is a new starter (or a good used one). Total R&R time: 15-30 minutes. It is pretty easy as long as you: 1) remember to disconnect the battery negative before messing with the starter terminals/wires and 2) remember the correct terminal for each wire when re-installing. And if you put in a new starter, you can probably remove the hot start relay.

I'm pretty confident in my ability to replace the starter. But there's no way I can get one out here before my trip.

In the mean time, make sure you have a down hill run-out for the bus when you park. Put the transmission in 2nd gear with ignition on and pop the clutch once you are rolling.

I've probably clutch-pop started half a dozen different VWs dozens of times but've always used 1st (maybe reverse a few times as terrain warranted). Is there a special reason to use 2nd?

Also:
Tonight when I got home from work and without performing any diagnostics or anything (I was looking to see if the stereo was on (it wasn't)), I tried it at the key just for fun and vroom vrooom! What the hell. I just don't understand elecktrissikity.

[satchmo]

"If the relay blew a fuse, wouldn't that mean it'd not start at all, ever, warm or cold (until you changed the fuse)?"

Well, you said that it would only start when cold, then you said it didn't start at all, so that is why I said to check the fuse.

"Is there a special reason to use 2nd?"

2nd gear is just a little easier on the engine and transmission, I think, and gets you going just the same as first. Colin suggested it to me long ago, and I am just passing it on to you.

Good luck,

Tim

[whc03grady]

"If the relay blew a fuse, wouldn't that mean it'd not start at all, ever, warm or cold (until you changed the fuse)?"

Well, you said that it would only start when cold, then you said it didn't start at all, so that is why I said to check the fuse.

Gotcha. My description of the situation is confusing, having been written by a confused person.

"Is there a special reason to use 2nd?"

2nd gear is just a little easier on the engine and transmission, I think, and gets you going just the same as first. Colin suggested it to me long ago, and I am just passing it on to you.

That makes complete sense and I feel a little dumb for not thinking of it over the previous two decades. It would lessen the little bark! tire-hop that's often the result of popping the clutch in 1st, I imagine.

[whc03grady]

Battery as it sits in the car.


Battery as it sits in the car, engine running.


Positive battery cable removed, red from meter to positive post on battery, black from meter to positive battery cable.

Does any of this mean anything?

[satchmo]

Does any of this mean anything?

Yes. It means your battery has over 12v available for starting. That it is getting 14v while running/charging. And that you have no significant current drain on the battery when the bus is parked. I think this effectively rules out a weak battery or poor charging as a cause for your bus not starting when hot.

Your bus will probably start reliably when it is stone cold, like first thing in the morning. After running the engine for a while, the starter gets hot and the resistance goes up (I think that's what happens, someone will correct me if I am wrong on that point), so no start then. That's when you do the push start.

Until you get a new starter. Then you will get to begin a new thread on whether and how to replace the starter bushing in the bell housing and bemoan the fact that it would have been so incredibly easy to put a new bushing in there when you just recently had the engine out.

Tim

[whc03grady]

Does any of this mean anything?

Yes. It means your battery has over 12v available for starting. That it is getting 14v while running/charging. And that you have no significant current drain on the battery when the bus is parked. I think this effectively rules out a weak battery or poor charging as a cause for your bus not starting when hot.

That's what I thought it meant, really! I'm glad my suspicions (such that they were) were confirmed.

Your bus will probably start reliably when it is stone cold, like first thing in the morning. After running the engine for a while, the starter gets hot and the resistance goes up (I think that's what happens, someone will correct me if I am wrong on that point), so no start then. That's when you do the push start.

I get that, and it explains why it wouldn't start five minutes after a 26-mile, 65 mph highway drive, but why wouldn't it start 14 hours after that drive?

Until you get a new starter. Then you will get to begin a new thread on whether and how to replace the starter bushing in the bell housing and bemoan the fact that it would have been so incredibly easy to put a new bushing in there when you just recently had the engine out.

The facts are unfortunately more unfortunate than that: for whatever reason the hole in the bell housing is so ovaled out that Colin JB Welded the bushing in there. I'm wondering about autotrans starters, which don't need the bushing.

[Sylvester]

The facts are unfortunately more unfortunate than that: for whatever reason the hole in the bell housing is so ovaled out that Colin JB Welded the bushing in there. I'm wondering about autotrans starters, which don't need the bushing.

My 1963 Bug had that issue, I used an autotran starter for it. As John Lennon once said, "Whatever gets you through the night".

[Amskeptic]

Hey Mitch,

That poor poor starter, you know it is the starter, that poor shrieking starter, let it rest in peace.

The *best* gear for jump starting a well-tuned engine is 3rd. The momentum you need to build up by pushing the car is less than 2nd gear. I can start the BobD right off the gas pumps with a 3rd gear jumpstart. I don't even bother getting in the car, I push the car, shoulder on the door panel near the hinges, with my hand on the clutch pedal, snap it up then stick it back down, and the engine is running . If you slip, the car will drive away with you standing there.
Perhaps you would prefer the old pushpushpush hopinthedriversseatturnontheignition pushtheclutchstickitingearletouttheclutch and engine is now running?
Colin
(did we bypass the hotstart relay while we enhanced the electrical paths under there?

[BellePlaine]

BTW, what’s up with that starter bushing anyway? Must it really be replaced with each new starter? Mitch, sounds like it wouldn’t help anyway (due to the JB Weld), however if you think that it will help, I have the perfect punch to knock out old starter bushings.

[grandfatherjim]

The hot start relay is to help the solenoid, which gets roasted by the air coming out the flapper valve.
If the relay/solenoid deal were the problem, you would have no clack clack. That's the sound of the solenoid doing its thing. The hot start relay is working, and the solenoid is being energized.
All points to the starter itself.
Jim

[glasseye]

Does any of this mean anything?

Yes. It means your battery has over 12v available for starting. That it is getting 14v while running/charging. And that you have no significant current drain on the battery when the bus is parked. I think this effectively rules out a weak battery or poor charging as a cause for your bus not starting when hot.

I always follow the advice of my Dad, who was very wise in the matters of vehicles not starting: "When in difficulty, go directly to the battery."

A battery that's getting on towards five years old, with significant periods of non-use and a cheapie to begin with is suspect. Given its critical mission, it's a bad place to economize. Why not substitute a new, good battery and see if that solves your problems, at least until you rule out the starter as the source of the problems?

My understanding about batteries is that the only really meaningful diagnostic test of a battery's ability to start the engine is the value of the battery voltage UNDER LOAD. This test can be done at most FLAPS.