AAND We're Off . . .

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

User avatar
sgkent
Addicted!
Location: Citrus Heights CA (near Sacramento)
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by sgkent » Mon May 15, 2017 12:34 pm

a check at 500 miles then a thousands or two per 3000 miles would be normal. More than that is worrisome because one does not know where the lost free play is coming from. Is the cylinder bedding in? Is the valve stretching? Is the seat sinking? is the head seating in? If it was flycut, and Colin retorqued it 12 - 24 hours after the first torqueing then it should not change a lot. Same for endplay - when they are set with good shims maybe they will open up .001 over the first 10,000 miles but to be at .006" already in 500 miles that is unusual. I am not saying this as a told you so but rather because one always wants to avoid situations like this - it is best to either re-machine or discard parts that are out of spec unless you have a museum piece that will never run. Many parts that get sold are B or C grade parts - but since they are not stamped as such it is up to the retailer, machinist or engine builder to check before using. I once bought a brand new high quality gland nut for my 1971. A trip around the block and there was a knock. I pulled the engine and the flywheel was loose. Pulled the nut, used Loctite and torqued it again with a torque wrench to 253 ft lbs. Started it up and within 2 minutes it was knocking again. Pulled the nut and went back to the shop where I got it from. The guy said he had not seen any issues with them - then the owner came running out from the back and told him to pull the entire stock off the shelf. While the guy had been at lunch two other people had come in with the same problem from the same batch. Sometimes the part looks good but that does not mean it always is.

Colin - whatever you decide to do we will do whatever we can to help.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

Merlin The Wrench

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 15, 2017 7:52 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 9:52 am
Amskeptic wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 8:18 am
This mission may be aborted. I am giving it until Knoxville TN.

IF the exhaust valves have appreciably tightened up AGAIN for the THIRD time, Chloe goes to storage unit, and BobD goes around the country.

This engine just eats the hills in 4th gear but dammit, the clutch vibration chatter the new .006" endplay ALREADY, and the left side head with these exhaust valves, I can't do that.
Colin
(but I LIKE Chloe and I wanna take Chloe around the country, I wanna I wanna I wanna)


How much are the exhaust valves tightening up in hours or thousandths? I guess it must be a lot if you're this worried about it, huh? My understanding is it's not unusual for the exhaust valves to tighten up as they seat in. My buses engine has around 16k miles on it now and I'm still experiencing tightening exhaust valves on 3 of the four cylinders. All about the same tightness. The intakes are staying perfect. I spoke to a well known engine builder and he said I shouldn't panic (yet) as it can take 20k miles for the exhaust valves to settle in and stabilize. I'm having to back off my adjusters about 2 hours at each valve adjustment on all but cylinder 4.

The other question is did they not install new exhaust valves during the valve job?

I supplied new Osvat exhaust valves ( Italian - who knows the quality? ). This is NOT a problem with the exhaust valves! Hello! It is a problem with the damn seats that were not fully/properly installed, remember? With poorly installed seats, the problem is Loss Of Interference Fit as they embed.

I have just flogged my poor bus another day, blew past Knoxville because it just wasn't enough drive time to give me the trend I need to see. So, now I am in Asheville NC and will check the clearances in the morning. Strangely, and perhaps ominously, I have two new symptoms:

a) CHTs are now up a good 20* . They are still acceptable, but I hit 380* on a couple of good hill pulls. What it tells me is that the #3 exhaust may be lower now and we're beginning to see higher velocities of exhaust gas passing through, I think they call it "shrouding"?

b) I have an oil leak at the front seal now. After thirty seven years of this air-cooled Volkswagen thing, I have my first spotting when I park. Who do I thank? Engine balancer for not catching a bent friggen crankshaft? AirCooled.Net for selling me a defective pressure plate that is thrumming the release bearing and chattering upon start off?

c) Chattering is beginning to amplify as I reckon oil vapor is beginning to invade the clutch environment and the pressure plate spring is what, weakening?

Tomorrow, I check valves first thing. Engine now has 1,250 miles. This will be the third valve adjustment since I took off for Paducah KY. If the #3 and #4 exhausts are tight, I have lost my trust. The right side of the engine had just the usual tight clearances but they have been stable over the past two adjustments. That means the left head is specifically and uniquely suffering.

If the valve clearances are acceptable, I am going to try to find a place here in North Carolina to pull the engine and stick on the vintage pressure plate and maybe get the flywheel off to see why the end play has opened up to .006" already. I think the crankshaft has made space for its squirmy little self in my nice once-tight new case, because the thumpiness has attenuated just a bit, but I hear a main bearing thump at idle that I did not have last week. I can live with some of this clusterf**kiness, but not tight valves and chattering clutch engagement.

We had a crash-and-burn truck accident on Interstate 40 that gave me a three mile uphill stop and go traffic jam to really piss off the clutch this afternoon. I do not want to just wear out my original build Volkswagens (read: Naranja and BobD) because I need to remember why I liked the original engineering so much. Once they are done with their original service life, I don't think they will ever be the same. Chloe is my aftermarket parts mule and though I hate to see it suffer, it has been selected as the main Itinerary vehicle. I wince at every use of the clutch, I wince at every wind-out of the engine, I wince at every shift into 4th (the Rancho rebuild never did loosen up).

If I do get the vintage three-arm pressure plate in, I pray the engine balance is not then thrown off in the name of getting rid of the confounding chatter. That would be trading one wince for another.

My May 17th call is not going to happen. Will try for the 20th.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Bleyseng » Tue May 16, 2017 7:23 am

Those VW pressure plates were pretty well balanced back in the day so you should be good to go. New stuff from Mexico, Brazil should be balanced with the whole rotating parts when rebuilding these days. You might be getting a bit of tranny oil too if the crank is thumping along with the clutch chatter. Check that the output shaft seal is tight and free of oil.
I worry more about the valves tightning up than the bent crank in the long run. The crank is just going to pound out the bearings while the valves can do a lot more damage if they let go.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
sgkent
Addicted!
Location: Citrus Heights CA (near Sacramento)
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by sgkent » Tue May 16, 2017 10:29 am

if the engine comes out again I would bolt a dial indicator on the case, and set it against the flywheel. Pull the plugs and spin the flywheel several times around with the dial indicator against the flywheel. See what the runout is. If it is too much it may be pounding the front main - which could damage the case thrust surface where the front main bearing slides on. If that happens it would require a thrust cut on a new case to fix and special bearings. I think that would be the first thing I would do to protect the new case. The higher temps could be the rings seating in raising the compression a little.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

Merlin The Wrench

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Tue May 16, 2017 9:14 pm

sgkent wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 10:29 am
if the engine comes out again I would bolt a dial indicator on the case, and set it against the flywheel. Pull the plugs and spin the flywheel several times around with the dial indicator against the flywheel. See what the runout is. If it is too much it may be pounding the front main - which could damage the case thrust surface where the front main bearing slides on. If that happens it would require a thrust cut on a new case to fix and special bearings. I think that would be the first thing I would do to protect the new case. The higher temps could be the rings seating in raising the compression a little.


Great minds think alike. Compression is now 125/120/110/120. Valves were about 1/4 tight at #3 and #4 exhaust this morning. I drove another freeway banzai rather than drop the engine. Now I am in Richmond VA. Will check valves again tomorrow. Clutch gets more hateful as the day progresses. It was a warm 86* at 60-65 mph. Highest head temp 375* today.
Stupid thing has good power on hills and is smooth on the downhills. I just stand around and ponder what to do at the gas pumps.
Colin

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by asiab3 » Wed May 17, 2017 12:53 am

I miss those kinds of gas stops in the North East. With all the rain we were given out West this year, the insect population has spiked so high that I'm waiving my squeegee around like a madman at every gas station.... Not even an oil level check??

Remember how you brought Chloe two years ago, and commented on how Buddy's brand new engine had more pep and power? Well now you got to bring Chloe around here so I can remember what that's like! :)

Enjoy the Type 1 adventure, with "Type 2 fun!"
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed May 17, 2017 6:54 am

asiab3 wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 12:53 am
I miss those kinds of gas stops in the North East. With all the rain we were given out West this year, the insect population has spiked so high that I'm waiving my squeegee around like a madman at every gas station.... Not even an oil level check??

Remember how you brought Chloe two years ago, and commented on how Buddy's brand new engine had more pep and power? Well now you got to bring Chloe around here so I can remember what that's like! :)

Enjoy the Type 1 adventure, with "Type 2 fun!"
Robbie



We will have to compare noise production. I have never had such a noisy engine under load yet so nice while coasting. That is why I want to do a crankshaft swap before the case gets killed. Who sells quality counter-weighted crankshafts without those eight dowel flywheel ends?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
sgkent
Addicted!
Location: Citrus Heights CA (near Sacramento)
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by sgkent » Wed May 17, 2017 7:06 am

I started looking yesterday and only saw the SCAT one that looked good. Maybe Recycled Jack might have a good crank. I can check with Ari and Eric in W. Sac. They sold a nos 1600 one in cosmoline last year this time.

Incidentally, crankshafts should be stored in a box and packing that supports them, in the open vertically, or on a wooden rack that supports the mains. If they are stored horizontally for a long time, and a good portion of the weight is unsupported the crankshaft will bend over time. You see someone with them hanging off a shelf for example, the nose will droop. Or a crankshaft is sitting in a manner that the center is not supported, the center will droop. When I say sitting - it is not just a week or two but over a period of a year or more. It is not uncommon to find a used crankshaft that has been sitting in a garage for 10 years or more.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

Merlin The Wrench

jackstar
Getting Hooked!
Location: Gulf Breeze, Florida
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by jackstar » Wed May 17, 2017 10:29 am

As an aside to Colin's troubles, does anyone know of someone that would like to purchase an orange 1977 Westy? It is reasonably good condition and the price is negotiable. Can be seen in Pensacola, Fl. Call for an appointment. Bueller? Bueller? Colin?

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed May 17, 2017 3:19 pm

jackstar wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 10:29 am
As an aside to Colin's troubles, does anyone know of someone that would like to purchase an orange 1977 Westy? It is reasonably good condition and the price is negotiable. Can be seen in Pensacola, Fl. Call for an appointment. Bueller? Bueller? Colin?



Hey! HeyheyheyHEY. That is not your vehicle to sell yet! You remember the deal. If I DIE, remember? If I DIE you can sell it. Well, I am not dead yet.
ColinDeadTired
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

tewa3240
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by tewa3240 » Wed May 17, 2017 3:24 pm

can't you get an eight dowel C/W crank & extract half the dowels?
or drive it as is, wouldn't be the first "thrashy" sounding rebuilt 1600 ever assembled/run hard.
of course, it's not my $$$ in that type 1 case, so.....carry on.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed May 17, 2017 3:40 pm

sgkent wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 7:06 am
crankshaft will bend over time. not uncommon to find a used crankshaft that has been sitting in a garage for 10 years or more.



Much mirth about that legend on the innernet. One bright bulb said, "yeah well how come it doesn't bend in the ENGINE, it is horizontal in the ENGINE!"

Now, this crankshaft was wrapped in bubble wrap for several years and stored vertically on a flywheel for the past two years. I certainly do wish Mr. Balancer had checked the runout before chewing off the #1/#4 cheeks.

Currently in Washington DC on I-95 corridor, waiting for the rush hour rush to settle down a bit. Drove down a dirt road next to the "King Dominion" amusement park complex to amuse myself adjusting brakes:

Image


Well, I was not that amused to find a wet left front drum. Darkly, I assumed that the German front wheel cylinders were leaking brake fluid all over everything. Well, they weren't:

Image


It was just a little grease layer weeping from the dust cap/speedo cable outlet. Finished adjusting the rest of the brakes and hit the frenetic I-95 hive. Got sucked into a couple of 65 mph passed-while-passing entrance ramp conundrums where incoming traffic would out-accelerate me leaving me stuck in the middle lane waiting to get back in the right lane. The bellowing Brahma Bull crankcase with the screaming generator on its shoulder sure doesn't seem to mind. 19.2 mpg @ an average of 63 mph in 88* heat @ CHT 375* all perfectly fine except for these architectural issues deep within the engine.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed May 17, 2017 3:43 pm

tewa3240 wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 3:24 pm
can't you get an eight dowel C/W crank & extract half the dowels?
or drive it as is, wouldn't be the first "thrashy" sounding rebuilt 1600 ever assembled/run hard.
of course, it's not my $$$ in that type 1 case, so.....carry on.
After hour after hour after hour day after day week after week after month after month, you really do want a civilized engine.
This crap shall drive me mad by October. Last time out, I couldn't even hear Chloe's engine with the windows down.
ColinPrincessWithBleedingEars
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
sgkent
Addicted!
Location: Citrus Heights CA (near Sacramento)
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by sgkent » Wed May 17, 2017 5:12 pm

Much mirth about that legend on the innernet. One bright bulb said, "yeah well how come it doesn't bend in the ENGINE, it is horizontal in the ENGINE!"
Actually that information came from working as a machinist and knowing some major crank grinders in the Los Angeles area. Crankshafts in a car do not sag when they are spun occasionally. I have align bored enough straight six in my life to tell you 100% that some engine blocks do sag 3 or 4 thousands over time and that if the crank is left in those blocks unspun it will warp with the engine.

The first things a crank grinder does before accepting a core to grind (or at least they used to) was check for damage, mic the journals and then put it on V-blocks and put a dial indicator on it. Walk in a crank grinder's shop sometime and you will find all the ground and cores stored which way? Vertical. It isn't for space. It is to keep them straight.

The crank in your VW engine doesn't sag because it is supported by the main journals which should be parallel if the case is straight. Stop discounting the tid-bits I share with you please. You would not be in this mess if you had taken what I told you seriously.

Ari and Eric are looking for a nos or like new 1600 crank for you. I'll let you know if they find one and how much if they do. They treat me well with the things they find.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

Merlin The Wrench

70Crew
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: AAND We're Off . . .

Post by 70Crew » Thu May 18, 2017 7:59 am

Colin, I have 2 engine blocks sitting in my garage. The externals have been removed but they have not been split. If either of them has a good crankshaft you are welcome to it, no charge. One is a 1970 SP, the other was a 1971 DP motor. Let me know if I can do anything between now and my appointment.

Post Reply