Well, Good Grief

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wcfvw69
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:56 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Ya know,

They say oil is like religion or politics. Everyone thinks there's is the best. :drunken:

I've read so many articles about oil weights and their effects on pressure and bypassing the oil cooler. Some of the authors were a hell of a lot smarter than I. On a weight and balance scale, the vast majority of them suggested no higher than 10-30 weight if your engine isn't on it's last legs. My findings a couple of years ago when I dropped to 10-30 supported their theories. I ran down the freeway for 10 miles at 70mph in 100* temps then exited the freeway quickly. I pulled over and shot my oil sump w/a laser temp gauge. It was 225*. I also have never experienced any flickering oil lights on my bugs or bus when the engines were hot.

I'm rambling but I'm satisfied with the 10-30 valvoline racing oil with the proper levels of zinc/phosphate for our flat tappet cams. I/we are all probably over thinking this oil thing anyway. Someone also said once "the most important thing is to change your oil frequently". So true.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:08 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:56 am
the vast majority of them suggested no higher than 10-30 weight if your engine isn't on it's last legs.

That is the latest conventional wisdom at work then.

My Lexus V-8 requires 10-30w. I put in 10-30 wt.
You know why? Because that is what they recommend *and* I have worked on those engines enough to know that a camshaft bearing clearance of .0008" damn well needs thinner oil.

The VW engineers suggested 30w in the summer and 20w in the winter for the 1970 bus. They warn against high speed driving with 10w oil if ambient temps climb above 32*F. That is pretty much it.

The later owners manuals do discuss multi-viscosity. There's 20-50! Damn, they recommend straight 40 for the highest ambient temperatures. They warn, again, not to do sustained high speed driving if the indicated viscosities are not sufficient. Apparently, anything above 50* ambient is too high for your chosen oil viscosity. Take a look:

Image

I have decades of hot highway driving and can hear my main bearing clearances open up (waaaay past anything the Lexus will ever see). If the "vast" majority you speak of knows something I don't about the critical oil wedge that must be maintained inside of a rapidly spinning bearing journal, by all means recommend that they get in touch with me to school my stupid ass.

Meanwhile, it is not all about oil temperature reading dick-sizing amongst the vast majority who do not know what they actually *need* for a happy hot long-lasting engine. See how it fills me with grave doubts to be intimidated by the vast majority?
Colin :bootyshake:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:19 pm

Anyways, engine is done:

Image
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:09 pm

Huh, I had a long reply typed up, then it disappeared. In a nutshell: We did more miles each in the last sixteen months than the "vast majority" will do in their ownership of a Volkswagen. Bill has the luxury of 8mm oil galleries on his Type 1 cars, which results in higher pressure at the expense of volume. And Chloe deserves a beautiful engine like that, considering the torment that awaits this summer.

See you in Portland for the annual "Robbie and Colin Come to Us" camp?

Robbie :pirate:
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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wcfvw69
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:34 pm

Your engine looks real purty! :)

Listen;
I'm just glad I wasn't in your debate class with you. lol. No one is going to argue that there's probably no one in America today that puts more annual miles on his buses in a calendar year than you do. Couple that with the decades of bus pilotage under your belt and there ya go.

Robbie did hit a key point in my posts that I failed to mention. The argument for no more than 10-30 was for tight bearing clearances on single relief engines with the small oil galleries. It wasn't on the dual relief cases with the bigger 10mm(?) galleries.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:08 am

Break-in occurs today on a test stand in Pensacola.
Praaaaaaay for my little compromised engine.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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sgkent
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:00 pm

Praaaaaaay for my little compromised engine
does "compromised" mean you cut corners, and didn't listen to advice again? I see a pattern here. Fortunately VW engines are tolerant. You'll be fine,
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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wcfvw69
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:24 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:08 am
Break-in occurs today on a test stand in Pensacola.
Praaaaaaay for my little compromised engine.
Colin
Image
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:19 pm

sgkent wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:00 pm
Praaaaaaay for my little compromised engine
does "compromised" mean you cut corners, and didn't listen to advice again? I see a pattern here. Fortunately VW engines are tolerant. You'll be fine,


"Compromised" means engine balancers that take my money and eat the cheeks off the crankshaft but the balance is horrendous.

"Compromised" means the machine shop that did not press the valve seat insert all the way in and cracked the exhaust guide boss under the valve spring.

"Compromised" means the well-respected vendor who sold me "'race-ready' rods with new nuts" without new nuts.

Please remind me of the advice I did not listen to. Stop flogging my engines into the ground all over the country? That sounds like good advice. Did you already give me that advice?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:24 pm

Here is the test stand:

Image


Inside the garage:

Image


Cranked about ten seconds for oil pressure light to go out. Filled the carburetor bowl through the air vent, engine started pretty much instantly. Here it is running at the ten minute mark:

Image


The movie I shot is too big for poor little Photobucket so that'll have to wait until I find a way to delete about 40 megabytes.

The first real disappointment is that the engine is not well-balanced. For $200.00, this is so not acceptable.

The filed cam gear left some pretty interesting aluminum residue in the oil change bucket at the 20 minute oil change, so I ran another oil fill through the engine for another 20 minutes while feeling out the vibration. The vibration is deep in the engine and it gets positively thrashy at about 3,000 rpm, you can't get a good focus on the top of the carburetor because it is vibrating so much. Changed the oil again, and this time the oil bucket (a white Motel 6 ice bucket) looked like the usual break-in.

Engine is now sitting in Naranja waiting to go back to Chloe in Atlanta.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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dingo
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by dingo » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:52 pm

I imagine that finding the best of 4 positions of the flywheel and the best of 6 of the pressure plate makes a big difference in balance and/or vibration.,..were you able to take those into account ?
'71 Kombi, 1600 dp

';78 Tranzporter 2L

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:48 am

dingo wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:52 pm
I imagine that finding the best of 4 positions of the flywheel and the best of 6 of the pressure plate makes a big difference in balance and/or vibration.,..were you able to take those into account ?
I had to follow the engine balancer's match marks for the flywheel-to-crankshaft, and the pressure plate-to-flywheel. I followed the directions.

The thing is, I am very familiar with flywheel imbalance and pressure plate imbalance. There is always a tell-tale vibration period right around 1,500 to 1,200 rpm as the engine comes back down to idle. That was absent. This thing just gets buzzy at 2,000 rpm and it gets thrashy at 3,000 rpm and above, deep in the heart of the engine.
Oy vey,
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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airkooledchris
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by airkooledchris » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:38 am

so what's next? are you planning to run it as is, or will you be taking it back apart to address these issues before trusting it on the big tour?

or is time up and it'll have to wait while you give Naranja one more trip?
1979 California Transporter

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hambone
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by hambone » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:31 pm

Sorry to hear. Can you live with it?
My former engine was built the same way by a local shop, deep vibration at certain RPMs. Got about 40k miles before it became terrible.
It is not acceptable though, it will drive you crazy. Is the balancer in your town? Jet-setting lifestyle. Make him hear this engine.
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it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:15 pm

airkooledchris wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:38 am
so what's next? are you planning to run it as is, or will you be taking it back apart to address these issues before trusting it on the big tour?

or is time up and it'll have to wait while you give Naranja one more trip?
Great questions that I cannot answer.

I have one Hail Mary this Saturday that will help me answer your question. An adjustment to the pressure plate that will require another run on the test stand if my back can take it.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:40 am

For what it's worth, I had a mediocre balance by SoCal's finest shops two years ago. Post Colorado, I had a HORRIFIC balance, after aligning all the dots. I shoved the generator one way, loosened the strap a little, shoved again, and snugged up the strap. As of right now, balance is better than it was before, though the generator strap is not very tight. What's the new engine like with the belt off?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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