Well, Good Grief

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:16 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:38 am
b) squealer,
Colin30
Damn, are you going to be running straight 10wt in that engine? I'm at my "summer 10w40" and couldn't get the thing below 13-14psi at idle until I went to Phoenix (98° ambients, 63mph.) It's a funny thing, these bearing clearances vs. oil pressure………

Also, what was the out-of-the-box balance like on those new pistons? I have dreaded what I will do when these NOS Koblenschmidts bit the bullet in a few hundred thousand miles. They were all within 1.5 grams the day they arrived on my door. I hear horror stories of sets 10-20 grams out, and certain vendors charging a premium to "go through" ten boxes at a time to find close-matching sets…

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:04 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:16 pm
Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:38 am
b) squealer,
Colin30
Damn, are you going to be running straight 10wt in that engine? I'm at my "summer 10w40" and couldn't get the thing below 13-14psi at idle until I went to Phoenix (98° ambients, 63mph.) It's a funny thing, these bearing clearances vs. oil pressure………


Hell no boy, I am putting in 20/50 at initial start-up until the snow flies. Remember! Oil viscosity is self-correcting in a VW.
If MY oil is too thick, the cooler is shunted until it is thin enough.
asiab3 wrote: Also, what was the out-of-the-box balance like on those new pistons?


The countrified machinists tell me that they were all fine. I did not double check. The entire rotating assembly is out 1.95 grams on the right and 1.50 grams on the left. That is all I can tell you.

asiab3 wrote:I have dreaded what I will do when these NOS Koblenschmidts bit the bullet in a few hundred thousand miles.
Robbie


You and I'll try Chinese next time. Today was three and a half hours with a hammer, a piece of wood, and a drift on a bench vise anvil to get the sled tins to fit. They are new from Air-Cooled.Net. Just horribly formed and dented. The whole reason I needed new ones was because Chloe's vibrating engine caused stress fractures at the screw holes throughout the lower tins that were stressed/pulled/tugged/pushed to fit. I demanded that this trash fall into place like NaranjaWesty and BobD's engine tins do. More tomorrow, after I pick up my head and install it.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:54 pm

So what's that now, 16 or 17 days left? Yikes.

I of "under dash oil pressure gauge" run thinner because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy after the oil cooler seal explosion fiasco of 2015.

Looking forward to feeling this engine's reduced vibrations this summer, I'm on course to finish off nearly 1,200 miles this week and I don't even think about the car much anymore. I know you're going to enjoy Chloe's lap this summer.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:54 am

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:54 pm
So what's that now, 16 or 17 days left? Yikes.
I know you're going to enjoy Chloe's lap this summer.

Robbie
Time is not my friend right now. I have a Lexus sitting out there, an engine, a big orange popsicle, disused art/computer set-up, and everybody's got to get to Atlanta at some point. Hmmmmmmm.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:07 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:54 am
asiab3 wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:54 pm
So what's that now, 16 or 17 days left? Yikes.
I know you're going to enjoy Chloe's lap this summer.

Robbie
Time is not my friend right now. I have a Lexus sitting out there, an engine, a big orange popsicle, disused art/computer set-up, and everybody's got to get to Atlanta at some point. Hmmmmmmm.
Colin
Atlanta? That's only 2,171 miles? Five days in a T1 bus…

Have double clutch, will travel. :pirate:
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:03 pm

Well, good grief again. The machine shop refused to charge me for re-seating the valve seat.
This causes consternation, frankly.
I did not Dykum Blue, but rather, Sharpie Blacked the valve seat and rotated the valve to see if the seating surface had gone off or out of concentric. Passed:

Image


As I was sticking valves back in the head, I saw this:

Image


That is a cracked exhaust guide boss on #1. The machine shop who did not put the seat in all the way, must have hammered the guide home without heating the head or chilling the guide, because that thar is what happens when there is too much interference.

After cleaning the outer perimeter of the seats and smoothing the combustion chamber to ports radii, I sanded down the perimeter wall as best I could, and rounded the corners of the boss, and smoothed the radius to the head surface to, I don't know, help it?

Image


Did a final oil wipe of the 1 & 2 cylinders:

Image


.. .. .. and stuck that head on with a prayer:

Image


Another two-hour fiddlef**k with the horrifically formed Air-Cooled.Net right side sled tin to make it drop into place with screw holes lined up:

Image


Then I shut off the lights and took my work truck home:

Image
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:48 pm

Jesus F Christ. Wow.

I hope you're traveling with a spare cylinder head. Is this engine blessed with Porsche swivel feet to mitigate valve guide stress?

Good luck Chloe.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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wcfvw69
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:35 pm

Ya know, with all the nightmares you're having with simply trying to get a VW head rebuilt CORRECTLY, it only makes some of those Chinese castings look that much better. Holy hell, did I just say that? Wait, what I meant to say is the Mofoco heads look very attractive now vs. rebuilding old VW cores. I use to like Autolinea heads but with all the casting flash clogging the cooling air passage ways, I'll avoid those now too.

I have to ask cause I'm a curious sort of guy. Why are you choosing to run 20-50 oil in a freshly built engine with tight tolerances?
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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sgkent
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:01 am

three fixes

1. drill a small hole at the base of the crack to relief it and slow the spread. Pray a lot

2. Pull the guide, heli-arc/tig and machine etc

3. Replace the head

If that guide comes loose it will take a lot more than a replacement head to fix the engine.
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:20 am

wcfvw69 wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:35 pm
Ya know, with all the nightmares you're having with simply trying to get a VW head rebuilt CORRECTLY, it only makes some of those Chinese castings look that much better. Holy hell, did I just say that? Wait, what I meant to say is the Mofoco heads look very attractive now vs. rebuilding old VW cores. I use to like Autolinea heads but with all the casting flash clogging the cooling air passage ways, I'll avoid those now too.

I have to ask cause I'm a curious sort of guy. Why are you choosing to run 20-50 oil in a freshly built engine with tight tolerances?
I am cleaning up Chloes Yuma Fleamarket heads as back-up.

I am full of hate for sloppy indifferent braggarts who do lousy work and charge good money.

The actual running oil viscosity will be no different than whatever you run. VW engines bypass the cooler until the viscosity is whatever it takes to close the relief valve. That means your engine and mine have exactly the same viscosity when the relief valve closes. 20/50 oil does know how to be 20, you know.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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hambone
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by hambone » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:23 am

That head looks like trouble....are you sure you want to run it? It's a mighty big land.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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wcfvw69
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:04 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:20 am
wcfvw69 wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:35 pm
Ya know, with all the nightmares you're having with simply trying to get a VW head rebuilt CORRECTLY, it only makes some of those Chinese castings look that much better. Holy hell, did I just say that? Wait, what I meant to say is the Mofoco heads look very attractive now vs. rebuilding old VW cores. I use to like Autolinea heads but with all the casting flash clogging the cooling air passage ways, I'll avoid those now too.

I have to ask cause I'm a curious sort of guy. Why are you choosing to run 20-50 oil in a freshly built engine with tight tolerances?
I am cleaning up Chloes Yuma Fleamarket heads as back-up.

I am full of hate for sloppy indifferent braggarts who do lousy work and charge good money.

The actual running oil viscosity will be no different than whatever you run. VW engines bypass the cooler until the viscosity is whatever it takes to close the relief valve. That means your engine and mine have exactly the same viscosity when the relief valve closes. 20/50 oil does know how to be 20, you know.
Colin
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... c&start=40

This is a good read.

I've found it to be true in my single relief cases. I was running 10-40 in my bugs. My 67 was running a bit hot. After reading lots of posts like above, I lowered it to 10-30 and saw a 10* drop in oil temperatures. I run it now year around, including the bus. None of these engines have more than 10k miles on them.
My understanding is the thicker oil keeps the oil pressure too high and thus, it bypasses the oil cooler longer which creates the too hot oil which then thins out enough to go through the cooler. However, it's still too hot because the oil pressure is too high for too long.

YOU were going to try 10-30 on a run through death valley in summer heat to compare. Did you ever?
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 am

I completed my Phoenix run in 95*-100* ambients. Temperatures were wonderfully cool, but pressure was on the scary side of acceptable. 10w30 Rotella here. I'm caring less and less about the temperature of my oil, as long as I have adequate supply (pressure) at all speeds in all conditions. The oil smells fine at 240* as it does at 180*.

Let just drive and see what happens:
Two trips to San Diego this week, San Francisco this weekend,
RobbieInLA
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:38 am

hambone wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:23 am
That head looks like trouble....are you sure you want to run it? It's a mighty big land.


I am cleaning up Chloe's flea market heads (which are FINE except for worn contact areas on the exhaust seats) and they will be my back-up. Pathetic that we are so hamstrung by lousy parts and indifferent machining. It is no different than being threatened by distracted drivers playing with their phones in their SUVs.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:50 am

wcfvw69 wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:04 pm
My 67 was running a bit hot.
After reading lots of posts like above, I lowered it to 10-30 and saw a 10* drop in oil temperatures.
I run it now year around, including the bus.
My understanding is the thicker oil keeps the oil pressure too high and thus, it bypasses the oil cooler longer which creates the too hot oil which then thins out enough to go through the cooler. However, it's still too hot because the oil pressure is too high for too long.

We do not give multi-viscosity oil its due. I have intimate experience with desert temps and 20-50 runs out like piss.
The oil cooler gets bypassed for how much longer with 20-50 than 10-30 (which is plain wrong for Phoenix in the summer)? Ten minutes?

I really really want hotter oil in Naranja to keep the effects of condensate to a minimum. Here in Florida, my oil cap tells me that the oil is not hot enough.

With Chloe, yes, I do not want the oil to soften the magnesium crankcase, so oil temps need to be below 240* as much as possible. The good news is, it is. And after looking at Chloe's #2 main bearing, I am so glad that I had good oil pressure even at hot idle. If I had to choose, like Robbie, I would be far far more interested in good pressure over cooler temps.

Meanwhile, speaking of oil temps, I have my cooler wrapped with new foam:

Image


The doghouse roof has new sealing strips:

Image


Gotta be prepared for that 20-50w Castrol GTX, ya know:

Image


Today, I complete the build. I need to find a test stand to run the engine down here in Pensacola to see if my cam gear kills itself. Why bring it to Atlanta if it is killed?

Image
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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wcfvw69
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:56 am

Ya know,

They say oil is like religion or politics. Everyone thinks there's is the best. :drunken:

I've read so many articles about oil weights and their effects on pressure and bypassing the oil cooler. Some of the authors were a hell of a lot smarter than I. On a weight and balance scale, the vast majority of them suggested no higher than 10-30 weight if your engine isn't on it's last legs. My findings a couple of years ago when I dropped to 10-30 supported their theories. I ran down the freeway for 10 miles at 70mph in 100* temps then exited the freeway quickly. I pulled over and shot my oil sump w/a laser temp gauge. It was 225*. I also have never experienced any flickering oil lights on my bugs or bus when the engines were hot.

I'm rambling but I'm satisfied with the 10-30 valvoline racing oil with the proper levels of zinc/phosphate for our flat tappet cams. I/we are all probably over thinking this oil thing anyway. Someone also said once "the most important thing is to change your oil frequently". So true.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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