1972 Westfalia - No start - $1.29 OSH fix (UPDATE: SUCCESS!)

dingo · Post by **dingo** » Mon May 25, 2009 9:38 pm

hmmm...puzzling....maybe its overkill, but have you checked for compression ? valve clearance ?

im all out of ideas, except for something unique to that carb set-up..idling circuit...of which i am not an expert on

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Mon May 25, 2009 10:16 pm

dingo wrote:hmmm...puzzling....maybe its overkill, but have you checked for compression ? valve clearance ?

im all out of ideas, except for something unique to that carb set-up..idling circuit...of which i am not an expert on

Me too. I'm going to mess with it some more this week and if it doesn't work I'm organizing a fault-finding party with lots of IPA and good food next week. If I can get you, Jason, and Bob to come troubleshoot, I'm sure we will figure it out in no time. And if not, we'll just slap that fuel injection stuff that's gathering dust in my garage on there.

Post by **Amskeptic** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:05 pm

This is utterly mystifying. you have gas, air and spark.

I would give myself 30 minutes to get it running if I was there.
Valve adjustment, distributor timing analysis ( I am spooked, so I would check for rotor at #1 position under the cap AND at the same time check to make sure #3's valves were indeed at overlap, and I would then check/adjust all of the valves to make sure too)

If it had points, I would double check breaker point gap for an honest .016" + and replace condensor summarily AND inspect where the primary lead enters the distributor for any worn insulation AND check the breaker plate ground wire (the little braided thing between the breaker plate and the stationary plate underneath.)

I would do a resistance check of the rotor 5K ohms , clean the distributor cap inside, and check ohms of the spark plug connectors, 1K, and check wiring for tears.

I would make sure the plugs were clean, dry and gapped. I would make sure the gas smells freshly volatile.
Colin

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Tue May 26, 2009 7:46 am

Colin is right - there is a gap somewhere. It is something basic too. Sounds like either electrical or a vacuum leak.
Cap and rotor not seated? Distributor?
What if you replace the points and condenser and do a full tuneup?
Ya know, these sorts of problems present solutions to themselves if you really soak yourself into the matter, without much thought, just feeling. Sometimes I'll wake up the next morning knowing exactly what to do.

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:53 am

hambone wrote:Sometimes I'll wake up the next morning knowing exactly what to do.

The problem for me is that I'm somewhat mystified by these carburators with all their little passages and shut off valves and springs and stuff. Also, I am supposed to be a logical and objective researcher during the day so I have a hard time switching my attention to things that I know I did not touch or disrupt, like the plug wires or the distributor or the valves. Remember, all of this started when I replaced my fuel lines out of precaution.

Last night in the shower I wondered if I perhaps hooked up the pump/filter assembly the wrong way around so that I pumped four years of accumulated crap into the carbs when I first turned on the pump. Didn't have time to look at that this morning, but it would be consistent with the car running badly with no power right before it began to fail to start. Another option along those lines is that the new fuel hoses may have had crap in them. If such crap existed and if it made its way into the carbs could it cause some little passage or valve to become so clogged that the car wouldn't start anymore?

Another option I considered was the blue wire on the regulator. For a while I had the fuel pump connected to that wire (considered safer than connecting it straight to the coil) but it caused the generator light on my dashboard to glow continuously and I didn't trust the blue wire to provide enough juice to the fuel pump to get enough fuel on steep long hills. So I went back to the less-safe wire to the coil but left the blue wire connection in place in case I ever changed my mind. I thought I might have shorted out that errant wire when replacing the fuel lines causing an immediate short on startup. But yesterday morning I found that the wire wasn't touching anything. I removed it anyway but no difference.

Anyway, at some point we'll figure it out. Thanks for all the advice!

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:47 pm

Amskeptic wrote:This is utterly mystifying. you have gas, air and spark.

I would give myself 30 minutes to get it running if I was there.
Valve adjustment, distributor timing analysis ( I am spooked, so I would check for rotor at #1 position under the cap AND at the same time check to make sure #3's valves were indeed at overlap, and I would then check/adjust all of the valves to make sure too)

If it had points, I would double check breaker point gap for an honest .016" + and replace condensor summarily AND inspect where the primary lead enters the distributor for any worn insulation AND check the breaker plate ground wire (the little braided thing between the breaker plate and the stationary plate underneath.)

I would do a resistance check of the rotor 5K ohms , clean the distributor cap inside, and check ohms of the spark plug connectors, 1K, and check wiring for tears.

I would make sure the plugs were clean, dry and gapped. I would make sure the gas smells freshly volatile.
Colin

So I spent another 5 hours messing with it this morning with no success.

Here's what I did:
0. Adjusted all valves. None tight, most slightly loose.
1. Took the battery to Kragen. They charged it and declared it healthy.
2. Replaced the coil with my old one - no difference
3. Removed the distributor and replaced it with an old 009 that was in the bus when I bought it. This gave me one semi-start, but no running.
4. Thought I was on to something so replaced the Petronix in my dual vacuum carb with a known good set of points + condensor. Gapped at .016. Again, one semi-start, then nothing.
5. Checked and rechecked the position of the plug wires.
6. Hot-wired the coil to the battery, no difference.

A couple of worrisome things:

I can get the high-voltage wire from the coil to the distributor to spark by turning over the engine by hand, but for some reason cannot get the #1 spark plug wire to do the same. Shouldn't one out of every 4 coil sparks automatically trigger a spark at the spark plug wire?

Using a voltage meter it appears that the voltage at the coil drops to less than 10 volt when I start the engine.

So I am thinking this may be something electrical after all. With the battery declared healthy my next move is to clean the battery ground and to replace the distributor cap and rotor if I can find my spare ones.

Unfortunately, I am going to be in DC for a week so it is starting to look like I will be tent camping in Maupin. I just do not have enough time or brain space to get this bus going at this point.

Update: Cleaned the ground too. No difference. What is confusing me is that it always tries to start on the first try after I have left it alone for a while but it never succeeds and makes no attempt to start at all on the second, third, and forth crank. To me this behavior points to a non-electrical problem, no?

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:25 pm

I'm arriving really late to this thread - sorry if this has been already suggested/tried. Run a wire directly from the battery + post to the coil + post and they try to start it.

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:33 pm

vwlover77 wrote:I'm arriving really late to this thread - sorry if this has been already suggested/tried. Run a wire directly from the battery + post to the coil + post and they try to start it.

Sorry, I tried that (number 6 on the list above). But thanks!

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:25 pm

New plug wires?

They're relatively cheap and it's possible (since we're down to straw-grasping) that the wires are old, brittle and may actually be broken. When cold, they'll make connection, but as current flows through them, they heat up and open. I know, pretty far-fetched, but it sounds like you've tried everything else. What have you got to lose?

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:59 pm

dtrumbo wrote:New plug wires?

They're relatively cheap and it's possible (since we're down to straw-grasping) that the wires are old, brittle and may actually be broken. When cold, they'll make connection, but as current flows through them, they heat up and open. I know, pretty far-fetched, but it sounds like you've tried everything else. What have you got to lose?

I have thought about that as well. The wires are relatively new but they weren't expensive. I'm still thinking it must have something to do with the fuel/carburators, because the problem started with me changing my fuel lines. So I think I'm going to pull one of the carbs off next. I'll send pictures if I find something.

dingo · Post by **dingo** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:50 am

covelo wrote:
dtrumbo wrote:New plug wires?

I'm still thinking it must have something to do with the fuel/carburators, because the problem started with me changing my fuel lines. So I think I'm going to pull one of the carbs off next. I'll send pictures if I find something.

Assuming issue is related to fuel-line changeover, and also the fact that it doesnt want to idle...that points to maybe junk in the idle system

if it was me... i would remove top of carb#1 and inspect the brass tube that sucks fuel from the float bowl..make sure the jet at the bottom of the tube is clear. Also make sure the air-bleed hole near the top of the tube is clear. Then i would remove both metering screws of the idle system and blow them out with air or gumout to make sure no junk got sucked in there. Also make sure the pipes and rubber connectors that make up your 'idling intake manifold' are all sealed (although you probbaly already did)

good luck

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:49 pm

So it was junk in the carburators after all! It took a little longer than 20 minutes, but the bus is starting and running now (a little over a week before Colin's visit

). First I did the check that Colin recommended: pour half a shot glass of gas into each carb and try to start and it definitely wanted to run at that point. Then I pulled both carbs off and cleaned them with gum-out and put them back on and the bus started right away. Now I have to go through all the other parts I tinkered with (timing, ignition, vacuum lines etc.) to put everything back the way it was before I started this adventure, but I'm very happy that it runs.

So the moral of the story is that (a) the problem is always related to a fix you just made (changing the fuel lines in my case), and (b) blow out those fuel lines before you install them! It's too bad I didn't feel I had the time to fix this problem before my trip up to Maupin, especially since it only took an hour and a half or so to get it fixed once I knew what to focus on. Thanks to everyone for all the advice and support!

There's another moral of the story: when you check for fuel with a mirror in your 1972 engine bat cave, double check what you think you're seeing. I checked to see if fuel was spraying into the carbs with a tiny toy mirror and must have picked up the reflections of my hand moving the throttle or something, because clearly no fuel was getting into at least one of the carbs.

Time for pizza and beer! Happy 4th everyone!

satchmo · Post by **satchmo** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:31 pm

covelo wrote:So it was junk in the carburators after all! It took a little longer than 20 minutes, but the bus is starting and running now (a little over a week before Colin's visit ). First I did the check that Colin recommended: pour half a shot glass of gas into each carb and try to start and it definitely wanted to run at that point. Then I pulled both carbs off and cleaned them with gum-out and put them back on and the bus started right away. Now I have to go through all the other parts I tinkered with (timing, ignition, vacuum lines etc.) to put everything back the way it was before I started this adventure, but I'm very happy that it runs.

So the moral of the story is that (a) the problem is always related to a fix you just made (changing the fuel lines in my case), and (b) blow out those fuel lines before you install them! It's too bad I didn't feel I had the time to fix this problem before my trip up to Maupin, especially since it only took an hour and a half or so to get it fixed once I knew what to focus on. Thanks to everyone for all the advice and support!

There's another moral of the story: when you check for fuel with a mirror in your 1972 engine bat cave, double check what you think you're seeing. I checked to see if fuel was spraying into the carbs with a tiny toy mirror and must have picked up the reflections of my hand moving the throttle or something, because clearly no fuel was getting into at least one of the carbs.

Time for pizza and beer! Happy 4th everyone!

Congratulations! I knew you would figure it out. Thanks for your 'moral of the story.' Its always nice to gain some wisdom from any experience.

Tim

Post by **Amskeptic** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:42 pm

Dammit! Guess I'll go put away my cape now.
Colinobsolescence
(but really, congratulations, that is what is about right there. . . perseverence! I shall render your engine unstartable while you are making the coffee, and we'll test your diagnostics once more)

RSorak 71Westy · Post by **RSorak 71Westy** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:52 pm

Hey A little credit where's credit due, I called no fuel on page 1.....

Itinerant Air-Cooled

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1972 Westfalia - No start - $1.29 OSH fix (UPDATE: SUCCESS!)