Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:04 pm

Fitted the 205P that I bought from Colin yesterday - very strange, as the vacuum port on top of the can (i.e., not the one next to the distributor itself) is in a completely different place to the one on the CA-spec sensor that I removed. It points down and towards the back of the fan housing, rather than up and towards the air box :scratch: I managed to get the vacuum line onto it, though.

Tried to start and the engine just turns over, but doesn't catch. I can smell gas, so presumably we're back to a spark issue.

I'm going to get back under there sometime soon, take off the passenger side valve cover and ascertain that I did find TDC - I think that I did, but with the various frustrations, I'm not trusting my memory...

Condensor wire (green) goes from Coil terminal 1 to the condenser, and then inside the distributor, correct?

Black wire from coil terminal 15, joining back-up light wire at in-line fuse, and then on to double relay (still using the original CA-spec double relay and ECU).

Simplistically (it's how my mind works best...) and by looking at the 77/78 wiring diagram so that I'm not confused by the CA-spec stuff in the 79 diagram..

Ignition switch
Black to +ve battery
Red to alternator
2 x red/whites - one to fuse #9 in the fuse box and the other across to terminal 85a on the double relay

Double Relay
Black from terminal 86c to the in-line fuse, which then splits to the back-up lights and terminal 15 (+ve) on the coil

Coil
Green from terminal 1 (-ve) to the distributor (this is the condenser wire, I presume).
White wire going from terminal 1 (-ve) to the ECU.
Black going to the fresh-air blower relay from terminal 15 (+ve).
Black going to the double relay from terminal 15 (+ve), as above.

Then, of course, the ignition lead from the middle of the coil to the middle of the distributor cap.

The wiring diagram on VintageBus.com shows a green/white wire leaving the coil and ending in a red blob (current track 64) - no idea what that is...

Image

Electrically, does that all sound correct?

The gas is probably pretty damned stale by now too, but I would hope that it would have enough chemically to start up, as I'm only about 10-15 miles into a full tank :cheers:

If all that is good, then all I can think is that I failed miserably at finding TDC and the timing is so far out it hasn't got a hope of starting - does that sound fair?

I have no idea what has changed since it ran, albeit not well, with the distributor I borrowed form Chris :scratch: :crybaby:
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Amskeptic
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:23 pm

rallybug wrote: Tried to start and the engine just turns over, but doesn't catch. I can smell gas, so presumably we're back to a spark issue.

Condensor wire (green) goes from Coil terminal 1 to the condenser, and then inside the distributor, correct?

Black wire from coil terminal 15, joining back-up light wire at in-line fuse, and then on to double relay (still using the original CA-spec double relay and ECU).


Double Relay
Black from terminal 86c to the in-line fuse, which then splits to the back-up lights and terminal 15 (+ve) on the coil

Coil
Green from terminal 1 (-ve) to the distributor (this is the condenser wire, I presume).
White wire going from terminal 1 (-ve) to the ECU.
Black going to the fresh-air blower relay from terminal 15.
Black going to the double relay from terminal 15, as above.

The wiring diagram on VintageBus.com shows a green/white wire leaving the coil and ending in a red blob (current track 64) - no idea what that is...

Electrically, does that all sound correct?

The gas is probably pretty damned stale by now too, but I would hope that it would have enough chemically to start up, as I'm only about 10-15 miles into a full tank :cheers:

If all that is good, then all I can think is that I failed miserably at finding TDC and the timing is so far out it hasn't got a hope of starting - does that sound fair?

I have no idea what has changed since it ran, albeit not well, with the distributor I borrowed form Chris :scratch: :crybaby:
Bulletproof Start Technique As Follows:

1)
a) take off DRIVER'S SIDE valve cover. Rotate engine clockwise until you see the #3 EXHAUST valve almost completely close at which point you should see #3 intake valve just begin to open. This is "overlap" for #3 which guarantees you that cylinder #1 is at firing TDC. Set the timing mark on the pulley to 7.5* BTDC mark on the scale.

b) Take off the distributor cap. The rotor must be located underneath the wire in the distributor cap that leads to #1 spark plug. IF IT IS NOT, pull all the spark plug wires off the distributor and PUT the #1 wire in the cap where the rotor is pointing when the cap is on. Now put #4 clockwise next, then #3, then #2.

c) Now pull off distributor cap and rotor so you can see the breaker points. Make sure the black lead is actually plugged into the spade on the plastic connector. Loosen the distributor clamp and rotate the distributor counter-clockwise until you see that the point rubbing block is guaranteed at the top of a breaker lobe. Check the gap between the points, it must be an E-Z slide .016" no oily feeler blades, wipe points when done with your very best white shirt.

d) rotate the distributor clockwise until it looks like the points have now just closed. Should be close to where you started. Install the rotor and snap the cap on. Put 12 volt test lamp alligator clip on green #1 coil terminal (the green/white wire is for the computer test socket, just cut it off as far into the harness sheath as your snips will allow). Turn on ignition. Ground the probe on the engine, good ground on metal, please. Rotate distributor clockwise if the light is initially on, until it goes out. Now rotate distributor counter-clockwise until light just goes on. Shut off ignition. If you moved the heck out of the distributor, you might want to check that the rotor is actually under the spark plug wire leading to #1. Tighten distributor just enough. This is a correctly statically timed engine that WILL start.
HOWEVER
e) please pull and clean and gap your spark plugs to .024". Fuel with no ignition can wet the plugs in cool conditions

2)
a) please note that your voltage comes TO the coil from the harness that includes the oil pressure switch wire. Did you say that it is coming from the heater relay?
b) the black wire that leads to the reverse fuse/double relay is DOWNSTREAM of the coil #15 (+) and must branch before the reverse lights fuse to ensure that the double relay is energized even if you blow the fuse.

3) With a fresh battery, crank engine while slowly applying the accelerator to the floor. If it begins to catch as your foot is on the floor, leave your foot on the floor even as you give the starter a rest after 15 or 20 seconds. Try again leaving your foot on the floor IF it is catching. If it plays totally dead, PM me so that we can arrange a phone consultation.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:58 pm

Amskeptic wrote: 2)
a) please note that your voltage comes TO the coil from the harness that includes the oil pressure switch wire. Did you say that it is coming from the heater relay?
b) the black wire that leads to the reverse fuse/double relay is DOWNSTREAM of the coil #15 (+) and must branch before the reverse lights fuse to ensure that the double relay is energized even if you blow the fuse.

Colin
I'll look at the mechanical side hopefully this weekend (can't do it during the day in the week as baby duties)

In answer to 2(a):

Image

Black wire coming in from the right is the one from +ve on the coil.

Image

+ve side (above the HT lead to distributor)
Left-hand black - see above
Right-hand black joins with the blue wire from the TSII into a sheath, then black splits off to fresh air blower relay and blue goes off towards ECU

-ve side (below HT lead to distributor)
White goes off to ECU
Green goes to condensor on distributor.
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Amskeptic
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:20 pm

rallybug wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: 2)
a) please note that your voltage comes TO the coil from the harness that includes the oil pressure switch wire. Did you say that it is coming from the heater relay?
b) the black wire that leads to the reverse fuse/double relay is DOWNSTREAM of the coil #15 (+) and must branch before the reverse lights fuse to ensure that the double relay is energized even if you blow the fuse.

Colin

Right-hand black joins with the blue wire from the TSII into a sheath,
then black splits off to fresh air blower relay and blue goes off towards ECU

White goes off to ECU
Green goes to condensor on distributor.
Blue wire from the TS II? That does not sound like the above orientation I provided (in bold).
Might you be talking about the lowly oil pressure switch just in front of the distributor?

The TS II wire may or may not be black at the cylinder head temperature sensor itself, (normally located just to the front of #3 intake manifold, but it is supposed to plug into a *white* wire that leads to the ECU in the FI harness. The oil pressure switch wire goes into a connector that leads to the dash via the harness that includes the black supply wire to the coil. It should be blue/black. The only blue wire I know of is the blue wire that plugs into the voltage regulator for the alternator warning light. The luminescent blue wire that goes through the left side tin is for the oxygen sensor and plugs into a flattened rubberized plug with possibly a green wire.

What does ve mean?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:23 pm

-ve = negative (note minus sign in front of the 've') :)

:banghead:

I have no idea where my head is - yes, it's the oil pressure switch that the blue (blue/black now that I look at it again) wire is coming from - or rather, going to. Black wire appears to be coming from the fresh air blower relay, but I can double-check that in a little while when Gin is home.
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:10 pm

I'm holding the harness that contains the black wire heading to negative side of coil and blue/black wire to oil pressure switch:

Image

As you can see, the blue/black wire is heading off towards the ECU/main harness, and the black wire is heading upwards.

Here's the black wire from the coil, winding around the brown/white wire

Image

Looks like it has had some heat issues - I can see bare copper strands at both the coil end and the blower relay end!
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:47 am

rallybug wrote:I'm holding the harness that contains the black wire heading to negative side of coil and blue/black wire to oil pressure switch:

Looks like it has had some heat issues - I can see bare copper strands at both the coil end and the blower relay end!
If you have the black wire going to the NEGATIVE side of the coil, you're damn right you're going to have some heat issues. I can't trace this down with you if I am getting more confused at every step . . . :geek:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:14 pm

Nope, black wire leaves positive on coil (terminal 15 on an original coil, rather than Bosch Blue, I think), into harness with blue/black from oil pressure switch. Where the harness sheath ends, the blue/black goes off towards main harness and black goes to the blower relay, in accordance with the wiring diagram.
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Amskeptic
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:39 pm

rallybug wrote:Nope, black wire leaves positive on coil (terminal 15 on an original coil, rather than Bosch Blue, I think), into harness with blue/black from oil pressure switch. Where the harness sheath ends, the blue/black goes off towards main harness and black goes to the blower relay, in accordance with the wiring diagram.
I read what I read, young rallybug. So, we are all the way back to . . . what it is supposed to be. Please straighten up your wire insulation and I look forward to your successful drama-free engine start . . .
Colin :cyclopsani:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:49 pm

In the post further up I noted positive, so positive (terminal 15) it is - I mis-typed with the later post :blackeye: I only have black wires going to positive terminal - green wire and white wire to negative (terminal 1)

My apologies for the mis-communications etc, I'm pretty easily flustered and Harvee definitely has the knack of sending me over the edge... #-o
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:11 am

rallybug wrote:I'm pretty easily flustered and Harvee definitely has the knack of sending me over the edge... #-o
I am happy to help fluster where I can. So, is it running yet?
Well?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:32 am

Like I said, I cant get to the mechanical side until this weekend (valve cover off, etc), hopefully Sunday.

Got to try and find the other vacuum pipes that the builders left off, too.
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:45 pm

rallybug wrote:Like I said,
. . . . . . . . . . . . like I said, "I am happy to help fluster where I can. . . "

We will delete all of this nonsense soon enough, after you get it running and we can make this a tidy technical thread. So long as it does not yet run, this idiocy shall remain here.
See? Still helping to fluster you.
Colin :bom:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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rallybug
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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by rallybug » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:28 pm

OK, attempting to follow your guide :)

Took off driver's side valve cover, rotated the engine manually clockwise until the #3 inlet valve started to open (I think!):

Image

I then rotated the engine to get the timing mark at 7.5 BTDC:

Image

Took off the distributor cap and checked that the rotor arm was pointing at the ignition lead going to #1 spark plug.
Removed the rotor arm and checked that the green wire was correctly connected. Loosened the inch-long bar bolt that I think is the distributor clamp (below the top spring clip and cold start in this photo):

Image

I can't rotate the distributor, though :scratch:
Harvee the Wonder Bus - a 1979 CA-spec 7-seater bus

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Re: Fitting a Fed distributor to a CA-spec 1979

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:29 am

rallybug wrote:OK, attempting to follow your guide :)

A) Took off driver's side valve cover, rotated the engine manually clockwise until the #3 inlet valve started to open (I think!):

I then rotated the engine to get the timing mark at 7.5 BTDC:

Took off the distributor cap and checked that the rotor arm was pointing at the ignition lead going to #1 spark plug.
Removed the rotor arm and checked that the green wire was correctly connected. Loosened the inch-long bar bolt that I think is the distributor clamp (below the top spring clip and cold start in this photo):

I can't rotate the distributor, though :scratch:
HI!
A) No think. Know.
Like, you can back up engine until it is totally obvious that the #3 intake is pushed open. Then advance immediately to 7.5 BTDC.

BUT: I think I see a problem here.
Your rotor position (as evidenced by the notch in the shaft that the rotor indexes to)
looks to be in between #4 and #1.
The rotor should be lined up with the little notch on the distributor body at #1 TDC and you should see that the points are about to get nudged open.

The drive slot at the bottom of the distributor hole should be 12* from longitudinal axis of engine.
**does your Hall distributor give you this 12* if you line up the rotor slot to the notch on the distributor body with you hoilding it in a rough approximation of how it would look if installed on the engine?

Image


If the drive slot angle (12*) in the distributor hole is not correct at TDC, then the vacuum advance can will not be in the correct spot to allow you to rotate the minimal amount required to snag your 7.5* static timing (test light just going ON when you rotate the distributor counter-clockwise).
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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