78 bus ignition switch cylinder

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DonB.
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78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by DonB. » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:05 pm

Replaced ignition cylinder, I can turn the key, dash lights come on but it won`t crank. I can put the old one in but its worn out and it might take a few times before it will crank. Any ideas

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Amskeptic
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:12 pm

DonB. wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:05 pm
Replaced ignition cylinder, I can turn the key, dash lights come on but it won`t crank. I can put the old one in but its worn out and it might take a few times before it will crank. Any ideas

Did you replace the switch itself? New switches can be awful. Disconnect battery and do a continuity test between red wire terminal and red/black wire terminal (while still all plugged in and installed) by turning key to start position from full off. Remember that the no-repeat switch means you must go to full off between each start position attempt.
Continuity? Continue on below. No continuity, bad switch.

Reconnect battery.Disconnect the molex connector. Put your jumper wire in the red wire terminal slot.
Make sure gear shift is like duh in like neutral.

Quickly brush other end of wire across the red/black wire terminal. You should hear something, a click, a chatter, off the starter solenoid back there under the back seat. Make a more secure bridge if you want to try to run the starter.

If it is deaddeaddead, check that the red/black wire connector in starter switch molex is at proper seat depth, and follow it to the big white rectangular connector above the steering column bracket (it is an eight-position connector). Make sure that big connector is fully seated! Check for an electrical path through both sides of the connector at the red/black wire position. Then follow it to the starter solenoid push-on terminal (#50). The red/black wire should be a firm push onto the top spade which I believe will be horizontal/parallel to the ground. The very important red/white wire's spade terminal should go on the vertical spade.
Colin
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,760 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 76,334 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 69,500 miles

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rallybug
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by rallybug » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:38 am

I'm having a similar issue (my '79 bus won't start with the key).

I'll follow these steps to check the ignition switch - I've put a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals and the bus started straight up, so my thoughts are either the switch has a problem, the wiring has an issue between the switch and solenoid (red and black one), or the solenoid isn't getting enough juice - does that sound fair?

I have all dash lights on including the brake warning light, so I think that means terminal 15 and fuse 12 are OK. If I read the wiring diagram correctly, terminal X and fuse 10 are good if the wipers/headlights work, terminal 30 and fuse 8 are OK if the emergency flashers work.

If all those work, that leaves either the switch, the red/black wire to the solenoid, or the T8 connector behind the dash - or, the starter solenoid itself.

Correct?

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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by asiab3 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:29 pm

Hi there! I'm assuming by "won't start with the key" you mean to say "won't crank with the key."

Does the problem persist in certain weather conditions more than others? If you whack the solenoid with a socket extension while someone cranks the key over, (all safety precautions included: set the parking brake, triple-check neutral, and heck hold the clutch pedal in if you're picky,) will the starter work then?

If you can probe connections with a volt meter, that may tell you a few things. Check voltage at starter terminal #50 while "cranking." Leave key "cranking" for a few seconds so the voltmeter can stabilize. Compare it to battery voltage while "cranking" and post both. They shouldn't be far off.

I'll be in your area in May if you need a helper to crawl under while you crank ;)
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy"
http://theroadtells.com
"I would not do this again on a short time frame, the country is just so vast and beautiful…" - Barb/Elwood

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rallybug
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by rallybug » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:04 pm

So...............

I decided to move my bus from the side of the drive (driver's side up close to a wall) to under the car port instead of my wife's car, so that I can access both sides and be out of the sun.

Moved the Hyundai, started the bus with a screwdriver across the solenoid and it idled lovely. Took it off the axle stand, drove it in to the car port and left if idling while I moved the Hyundai back. Stopped the engine, put it back on the axle stand and crawled underneath to re-attach the wires to the ignition switch and the double relay.

Thought what the heck, and for the fun of it I turned the key - it started first turn! Left it idling for a while, turned it off, dropped it back onto the ground and tried starting it again with the key. Started up immediately!

I have absolutely no idea what was different today (maybe the moon was in a different phase? :scratch: ), or whether it was a combination of cleaning the male terminals on the solenoid with emery cloth on Thursday, starting it with a screwdriver across them today, and that woke everything up, or what? Sort of ties in with it just deciding to not start last year, I suppose.

But anyway :cheers:

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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:04 pm

rallybug wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:04 pm
So...............

I decided to move my bus from the side of the drive (driver's side up close to a wall) to under the car port instead of my wife's car, so that I can access both sides and be out of the sun.

Moved the Hyundai, started the bus with a screwdriver across the solenoid and it idled lovely. Took it off the axle stand, drove it in to the car port and left if idling while I moved the Hyundai back. Stopped the engine, put it back on the axle stand and crawled underneath to re-attach the wires to the ignition switch and the double relay.

Thought what the heck, and for the fun of it I turned the key - it started first turn! Left it idling for a while, turned it off, dropped it back onto the ground and tried starting it again with the key. Started up immediately!

I have absolutely no idea what was different today (maybe the moon was in a different phase? :scratch: ), or whether it was a combination of cleaning the male terminals on the solenoid with emery cloth on Thursday, starting it with a screwdriver across them today, and that woke everything up, or what? Sort of ties in with it just deciding to not start last year, I suppose.

But anyway :cheers:
This is classic Old VW Solenoid behavior that is especially sensitive to the battery state of charge and cleanliness of grounds.

a) If the engine was hot
b) if the bus had been sitting for several days +

In both cases, a screwdriver bridge start indeed does restore function to the key start for a while.
Clean the heck out of the battery terminals off the posts, clean the ground wire terminus and do both ends of the transaxle ground strap, and see if you can do an overnight trickle charge of the disconnected battery at 2a for about 10-12 hours.

Robbie says he can be in there in May. I can be there July 4th or 6th. Geeze.
Colin
(p.s. don't bang the solenoid)
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,760 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 76,334 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 69,500 miles

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rallybug
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by rallybug » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:40 am

Charged last night (around 12 hours), reconnected battery cables, tried to start - starter churned, but engine didn't catch. Turned key off and back on - no oil pressure light (battery, OXS, brake warning all working). Turned the key and nothing.

Thanks for the offers to stop by in May and July - unfortunately, no money in the budget for any work on the bus, so it'll just have to sit until that situation changes. I have the upgraded starter & solenoid (SR0408X) from Bus Depot with the adapter plate, but have a conversation in with them at the moment as it has one small male terminal on the solenoid, compared to two 6.3mm ones on the original solenoid. If I read the wiring diagram correctly - 50 is connected to ignition switch, and the double relay?)

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rallybug
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by rallybug » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:08 pm

And started again tonight on 2nd attempt...



All three red warning lights on before starting, Oil Pressure went out straight away, battery and OXS took about 35-40 seconds to go out.

Ideas?

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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:32 pm

rallybug wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:40 am
Charged last night (around 12 hours), reconnected battery cables, tried to start - starter churned, but engine didn't catch. Turned key off and back on - no oil pressure light (battery, OXS, brake warning all working). Turned the key and nothing.
Man, we have got to get on the same page. Title of this thread "ignition switch cylinder". You stated that you used a screwdriver to start the car. Well . . . that wakes up the solenoid. So I replied that you need to optimize electrical paths and charge the battery. Great. Here, you state just above that the starter indeed rotated the engine ("churn" in you parlance) That is success! No screwdriver on the terminals! You get that, right?

So FINE, the engine did not catch. You know why the oil light was out? Because you had oil pressure! Cold engine cranking loads the galleries with pressurized oil and it can take up to 20-30 seconds for the oil light to come back on.

Then, the next attempt to start, we have a battery that stripped off its surface charge. That means the battery is weak. Charge it up again. If the starter-rotates-the-engine, we know you need a battery.

As for the engine not catching, I think you need to do spring maintenance on the engine. Clean the points, set to an easy .016", clean and gap the plugs .028" kind of snug, and with a fresh battery, you are on your way.

rallybug wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:40 am
Thanks for the offers to stop by in May and July - unfortunately, no money in the budget for any work on the bus, so it'll just have to sit until that situation changes. I have the upgraded starter & solenoid (SR0408X) from Bus Depot with the adapter plate, but have a conversation in with them at the moment as it has one small male terminal on the solenoid, compared to two 6.3mm ones on the original solenoid. If I read the wiring diagram correctly - 50 is connected to ignition switch, and the double relay?)
That small spade inside the plastic box is a sop to modern cars that use the same starter. You need to use a splitter terminal, one for the red/white that leads to the double relay and *turns *on *the *fuel pump *during *cranking!!, and the other for the red/black wire from the ignition switch. Clean tight connections!!

I think a visit would be helpful as I lob more salvos of essential vocabulary, fuel injection wiring, and "fun facts" at you. Plus, you would help pay for my trip to Alpine UT from Montana! on July 5th before heading to Wisconsin. Plus, I can accept/offer a half-day visit to *defend* my trip to Alpine UT. Plus, I love that hillside view. Plus the coffee. Plus your wife promised pizza and beer at the end of the day. Yeah she did (do you even like beer, I forget). Plus, the kids don't really need shoes until they are about five or six, you can carry them. Plus, Harvey misses me. Plus free pony rides! And we'll build a wall, a big beautiful wall and the contractors will pay for it!
ColinIsItHotInHere?
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,760 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 76,334 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 69,500 miles

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rallybug
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by rallybug » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:50 pm

OK, let's go for a visit on your way to Alpine, then

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Amskeptic
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:56 am

rallybug wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:50 pm
OK, let's go for a visit on your way to Alpine, then
So now the problem is, did we fix the car here? You know, does it turn over properly from the key and catch beautifully with your:

a) fresh battery or battery charge

b) red black wire attached securely to the starter spade terminal/splitter

c) red/white wire to the double relay from the starter spade

??
Colin
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,760 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 76,334 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 69,500 miles

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rallybug
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by rallybug » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:32 am

Starts on the key, takes three turns of the key to start though, while tickling the gas pedal - previously, it started on first turn and I didn't need to touch the gas pedal for it to start, as it is FI. It idles OK, switches from cold start to normal and drops the idle down the rev range as I would expect.

Going to call the mechanics to get it booked in for emissions test so that I can register now (safety tests went away from Jan 1st 2018 in Utah).

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Amskeptic
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Re: 78 bus ignition switch cylinder

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:00 am

rallybug wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:32 am
Starts on the key, takes three turns of the key to start though, while tickling the gas pedal - previously, it started on first turn and I didn't need to touch the gas pedal for it to start, as it is FI. It idles OK, switches from cold start to normal and drops the idle down the rev range as I would expect.

Going to call the mechanics to get it booked in for emissions test so that I can register now (safety tests went away from Jan 1st 2018 in Utah).
As I try to come up to speed in my profession here, I think I understand that you passed the emission test with flying colors. How does it start these days?
Colin
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,760 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 76,334 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 69,500 miles

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