002 3-RIB FAILURE

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Snap
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Clutch Issues

Post by Snap » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:52 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
asiab3 wrote:Achtung,Is the pilot bearing sliding in and out?
Robbie
That appears to be a normal picture as far as location and width of the needle tracks on the input shaft. I only noted that there appears to be a lot of rust discoloration.
Colin
How much grease should I pack into the gland nut. I believe when I first installed that gland nut I only put a light coating on the rollers before installing the engine. I know I did not do a good job of cleaning the input shaft splines which I will do this time.
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

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asiab3
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:17 am

Hi Snap,

I've always used just a tiny dab, spread evenly. I can't say for sure if that's correct, but you don't want any excess getting flung around the works.

Did you get a chance to inspect your pilot bearing? Does it stay put? Wiggle back and forth? How do you feel about the way it sits compared to the photo I posted? Do you see the bevel on the needle rollers and the corresponding wear marks on the input shaft? And the little metal snowflakes in the bearing that are screaming replace meeeee....?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Snap
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:04 pm

The pilot bearing looks like the day I installed it. The outer sleeve is firmly pressed into the glad nut, spins freely, and no shards or flakes of steel to speak of. I still have to original glad nut I took off during the first rebuild. It looks much like the one you posted with the rollers recessed with the felt ring in the void. I have not polished the shaft yet. I have been very slowly cleaning the transaxle and CV joints. I am very busy between work, spending time with family, and running road races on the weekend so my time devoted to get Snap back on the road has been very limited. I might install the old gland nut. I definitely want to polish the input shaft. I want to get a good quality clutch but not sure if there are good quality Sach clutches still around. Wolfsburg West wants double for there clutch pressure plates and friction plates than others do. Is there going to be any difference in quality if they come from the same manufacturer?
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

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hambone
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by hambone » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:53 pm

You should ask them, they are all out of balance these days. The Korean ones seem best, who knows. Sachs...
Gland nut probably OK and polish that input shaft big boy.
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Snap
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:02 pm

Will do, Thanks Hambone.
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

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asiab3
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:32 pm

Snap wrote:The pilot bearing looks like the day I installed it. The outer sleeve is firmly pressed into the glad nut, spins freely, and no shards or flakes of steel to speak of. I still have the original glad nut I took off during the first rebuild. It looks much like the one you posted with the rollers recessed with the felt ring in the void. I have not polished the shaft yet. I have been very slowly cleaning the transaxle and CV joints. I am very busy between work, spending time with family, and running road races on the weekend so my time devoted to get Snap back on the road has been very limited. I might install the old gland nut. I definitely want to polish the input shaft. I want to get a good quality clutch but not sure if there are good quality Sach clutches still around. Wolfsburg West wants double for there clutch pressure plates and friction plates than others do. Is there going to be any difference in quality if they come from the same manufacturer?
So the pilot bearing has always been installed where the picture shows? Do you not see a chamfer/taper on the outermost parts of the needles on the suspect one when compared to the original? I think I see a tape in your pictures, but it could just be the photo. I would hold off on polishing the shaft until we've come up with a more solid diagnosis; there might still be wear clues for us to deduce from the patterns.

Can you shove the gland nuts onto the input shaft and rotate them? Feel if the suspect nut wants to "grab" the input shaft splines?

"Good quality clutch"? What part? The disc? What was wrong with the old one? I replaced my rigid clutch disc with a sprung disc a few thousand miles into ownership, and I STILL can't get an 8mm wrench around the opening. It just might last forever if I keep double clutching… Any part number ending in "GR" on Wolfsburg West's website is genuine, vetted, Made in Germany. If that actually is the brown clutch material lining shown, Colin might be interested in one. Chloe had one slight chatter under my foot, which is totally completely absolutely unacceptable behavior… :bom: I do not know of any other retailer selling that German clutch disc.

The pressure plate is an interesting topic. Wolfsburg West sells German pressure plates for the early style release mechanism, but I only see the Brazilian "new" diaphragm style. The last two new pressure plates I handed (Brazilian) did not index to the flywheel correctly. They were made too small, and without a special mounting ritual, the engine would shake above 1,200 RPM. Since it is literally the same part,* I would fully inspect your old one for wear. If the clutch pedal was feeling fine upon removal, I am a proponent of reusing pressure plates, especially if the engine was balanced fairly well. You did mark their orientation, right?

Keep it up, you're getting close! :thumbleft:
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Snap
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:01 pm

Well, Snap is back on the road and here is my story. The clutch was worn enough to warrant a replacement. I initially thought about just replacing the friction plate but since the pressure plate was Brazilian and the fingers had a bit of wear, I bought the whole clutch kit. I tried order a Sach's Kit from my local VW parts house and they tried to sell me an early style Sachs clutch kit. Luckily I inspected the kit before I left the store. I tried to order the correct late style kit and the price doubled to 237$. I instead bought a LuK clutch kit from Napa. I have read a few forum posts complaining about clutch chatter. From my experience putting clutches in other vehicles, clutches only chatter when the flywheel is not ground. So far I have had zero issues with this clutch.

I not only ground the flywheel but also replaced the Front main seal, & checked engine end play. Since the Transaxle was out, I figured it was about time the weeping seals needed to be replaced. During the replacement of the transaxle input seal I started to polish out the discolored markings on the input shaft. That is when I discovered that the input shaft was damaged. It looks as if pilot bearing embedded the needle bearings into the surface. It took some searching but I was able to source input shaft from Racho Performance. Of course the shaft I got was set up for a type 4 engine so I had to cut it down.

I have read in a few forum posts that the shift rod bushings do not need to be replaced but I had already purchased them many years ago and decided to give it a try since the transaxle was out. I tried to purchase a new rear bushing as I already had the front one and was told it did not exist. I replaced the front busing and left the original rear one in since he did not know what he was talking about. I cleaned the tunnel, heavily greased the bushings, and installed the shift rod with new boots.

In addition to all of the other items I addressed I also cleaned, repacked, and swapped the CV shafts, pressure washed the engine/ transaxle bay, heater ducts, and reconditioned the accordion tubes inside and out. It looks spic and span.


Once I got the the engine reinstalled and running, the test drive proved that everything was back and operational. I was amazed how tight the shift pattern was after replacing the shift rod bushing and nose cone bushing & seal. However, the alternator caught my attention. As the engine warmed up, a squeaking chirping noise could be heard coming from the alternator. Sure enough the back of the fan moved up and down. You could feel a clunk in the rear bearing. I was able to replace the alternator in an evening and took a trip with my wife for our anniversary to the coast.

BTW: One item I would not have thought of was to check the CV joints after driving 50 or so miles. I was very surprised how much each bolt moved after I had torqued them during the initial install.

I will post pictures of the progress when I get a chance. Tomorrow I am going to re-spline & re-bush the rear suspension to get rid of the sag.
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

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asiab3
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:35 am

Wow, you've been busy!

Congrats on getting it all running. The parts shops sometimes can't find their backside without a part number; the late pressure plate/clutch kit is the same kit, but you have to grind off the early style centering ring. Oh well, sounds like you're doing fine anyway. It was probably best that you kept the original shift bushings in the tube and greased them. They don't really fail, and reproductions are always suspect…

Hope you had an enjoyable anniversary outing in the bus. Mine is up next week :)

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by hambone » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:52 pm

Good work man. Do it right!
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:59 pm

I have provided photos I took along the way that I have finnally gotten around to posting,

Image

Image

Working on any project with a clean engine bay is way better than a filthy mess. I made sure the water run off did not go down the drain as not harm any fish

Image

Some one told me that this spacer plate is not stock. It looks pretty stock to me. I had to make my own gasket. If you need to make one, Let me know, I have a CAD file that you can print out on Gasket Paper. I worked out pretty slick,

Image

You can see that needle bearing imprints in the input shaft surface

Image

You must have the differential clocked so the slot lines up with the shaft coupler in-order to slide the sleeve back far enough back to unthread the input shaft. I found a great series of photos on a thread on TheSamba of how to replace the shaft (Sand Rail Thread). NOTE: WHEN INSTALLING THE INPUT SHAFT DO NOT SCREW THE SHAFT ALL THE WAY IN. BACK IT OFF A FEW SPLINES TO KEEP FROM SHEARING OFF THE THREADED STUD WHICH RETAINS THE SHAFT.

Image

I just wanted to show a photo of how to minimally disassemble the engine in order to replace the alternator.
- Loosen intake boots
- Disconnect heat riser bolts
- Throttle Cable
- Intake to Block Bolt
- Remove Left intake manifold
- Slide Carb and intake over to get to Alternator bolts
- Must remove fan from Alternator
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

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asiab3
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:43 pm

I don't want to be a curmudgeon here, but aren't the bearing retainer tabs on the 002 (edited!) transaxle retainer plates supposed to be ground off? What is the harm/consequence, if any, of leaving them on? (My wild speculation thinks that it could be something as simple as ripping the plastic/rubber bearing seal on the 002, since the 091 transaxles have a different bearing/shaft design.)

Robbie
Image
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by kreemoweet » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:04 pm

003? I suppose you mean 002? I just put one of those retaining plates in my spare transmission. I've seen Colin mention something about
removing the tabs, but the instructions that came with mine (from Weddle Industries) said nothing about doing so, and I could see no reason
for going one way or another, so of course I took the easier path and left them on. I really can't see how the 091 would be different, either, unless
the pinion shaft needle bearing protrudes further than the 002 one does.

EDIT: It seems that up through '71, the front pinion shaft needle bearing is secured by a bolt coming up from the bottom of the gear housing, so the
tabs are pointless in that situation. But I have a liking for pointless things in general, so it's good.

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Amskeptic
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:46 am

kreemoweet wrote:003? I suppose you mean 002? I just put one of those retaining plates in my spare transmission. I've seen Colin mention something about
removing the tabs, but the instructions that came with mine (from Weddle Industries) said nothing about doing so, and I could see no reason
for going one way or another, so of course I took the easier path and left them on. I really can't see how the 091 would be different, either, unless
the pinion shaft needle bearing protrudes further than the 002 one does.
As I explicitly pointed-out . . .
The instructions said to grind away the two little tabs (marked in black in the photograph) that help retain the output shaft bearing on late 091 transaxles, if you have the early 002 transaxle:

Image

I am an unquestioning sheep, so I did:
There are changes aplenty along the input and output shafts from 002 to 091.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Jivermo » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:17 am

Where's the image?

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asiab3
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Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:58 pm

Jivermo wrote:Where's the image?
I think it was an old technical thread he was quoting. See the tabs over the grey-sided left-side "Made in Germany" bearing in the photo I quoted? Those are to be ground off on the 002 transaxles. I personally wonder what the effects are of leaving the tabs on, since a few here did just that.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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