77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

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thesamwise4
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77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by thesamwise4 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:18 pm

Greetings, all.

I've been trying to get my brakes straightened out and ran into a problem. The focus for this post is the rear driver's side wheel. I did some exploratory work last week and figured out that I needed a day with more time to put in a new cylinder and brake shoes.

When I went to do that today, the castellated nut came off pretty easily, which makes me fear that I did not tighten it enough when I put it back on. I got the brake components all straightened out (I think), and when I tried to put the drum back on, it wouldn't slide on far enough. I took the drum off, and noticed that there was a metal ring that was now blocking the drum. This ring can slide on and off the axle, but it won't go in far enough to allow me to put the drum on.

After looking around in the Bentley, I believe that this is the inner race of the roller bearing assembly. When I look past the oil seal, I can see the smaller, cylindrical pieces of this assembly, and they are kind of sticking out at somewhat odd angles. I tried to ease this ring back into this assembly, but no dice.

This is new territory for me, and the Bentley is a little sparse on info about this. Can you guys help me figure out how to get this corrected so I can get the wheel back on?

Do I need a new roller bearing assembly? If so, any leads on where to find one? Bus Depot seems to have a ton of bearings, but they look like they are not the right part.

Thanks in advance for your help.
-Dave

1977 Westy Deluxe--The Green Lantern

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thesamwise4
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by thesamwise4 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:42 pm

I'm going to go ahead and add a few pics in the hopes that maybe my first post was unclear (probable).


Image

this is how things looked when I pulled the drum off...


Image

and this is how it looked when I tried to put the drum back on...the newly present metal ring (which I think used to be the inner race of the roller bearing) is blocking the drum.

Image

When I look inside, I can see the little cylindrical pieces from the roller bearing assembly spinning around in there, but they have slide out of place and now block the metal ring's reentry.

What I'm seeking from you all is your thoughts about what needs to happen so that I can move forward (pun not intentional) and get rolling (ok, that one was on purpose).

Thanks in advance.
-Dave

1977 Westy Deluxe--The Green Lantern

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ruckman101
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:23 pm

I remember that bearing assembly as a whole on my '70. Not different parts.


neal
The slipper has no teeth.

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thesamwise4
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by thesamwise4 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:50 pm

Hey Neal,

Thanks for chiming in here.

When I look at my Bentley, I see it as a solid part, too. (I'm looking at 10.5 in the Transmission and Assembling Rear Wheel Bearing Housing). This makes me think that I'm looking at the spacing ring.

The thing that is confusing me so much here is that the small cylindrical pieces (the rollers, in the roller bearing) are, well, loose. I can remove the metal ring and reach in there and turn the bearing (with a small screwdriver), and when I do, they kind of pop out and sometimes come to rest on the axle. It seems like I could pop them out and scrape them out if I wanted to. This makes me think that I somehow lost the inner race for this bearing assembly.

It also looks like I simply have less axle to work with, which is another reason I'm wondering if something came loose and threw everything out of wack--even if I slide this metal ring off the axle, I still can't put the castellated nut on because there aren't enough threads poking through the drum.

Does this make sense?
-Dave

1977 Westy Deluxe--The Green Lantern

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ruckman101
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:12 pm

Yes indeed. That stub looked awful short. By an inch or more. It's been some time ago. Things are fuzzy, and there could well be differences between '70, and '77?

Inner, outer races, both single units, a spacer between, and yes I believe an outer spacer ring, with seals over both sides. Flying by the pants of my fuzzy memory here, so don't hold me to it.


neal
The slipper has no teeth.

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Bleyseng
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by Bleyseng » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:53 am

Looks like the inner race is munched and the stub axle is pushed back. I don't know about the early rear bearings but the 71-81 ones are one piece units.
I have to replace em on my 70 Ghia which are shot with lots of slop but they are made up of several pieces that have to be pressed on. Inner race, ball bearings, outer race and then the seal so maybe thats what yours is like too.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Amskeptic
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:56 pm

thesamwise4 wrote:Greetings, all.
Do I need a new roller bearing assembly? If so, any leads on where to find one? Bus Depot seems to have a ton of bearings, but they look like they are not the right part.

Thanks in advance for your help.
I am supposed to get a write-up done on this very issue.

I believe your roller bearing lost its inner race. In 1971, VW switched the construction of the rear wheel bearings to allow for composite (non-load-bearing) drums with a hub that carries the load.

That hub has the surface for the outer seal to ride on, earlier buses used a spacer. Now, I do not have this all in front of me, but I think your roller bearing is supposed to contain the inner race, and yours has escaped.

You mentioned a loose axle nut, that is not because people do not tighten them enough, it is because the thrust load surfaces of your bearings wear, THAT reduces the clamping force of your axle nut.
New bearings.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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thesamwise4
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by thesamwise4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:12 am

Thanks, all.

Ok, Colin, thanks a lot for clarifying. I hope your travels are going great this year.

I'll put in an order for new bearings tomorrow and will keep you all posted.

Any idea on the time frame for that write-up? I'll be firmly in uncharted waters on this repair...
-Dave

1977 Westy Deluxe--The Green Lantern

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Amskeptic
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:40 am

thesamwise4 wrote:Thanks, all.

Ok, Colin, thanks a lot for clarifying. I hope your travels are going great this year.

I'll put in an order for new bearings tomorrow and will keep you all posted.

Any idea on the time frame for that write-up? I'll be firmly in uncharted waters on this repair...
I really suck at timeliness during the Itineraries, but with you and RSorak71 both waiting, I will try to get to it . . . shortly!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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thesamwise4
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by thesamwise4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:25 am

OK, so I'm going to order some parts for this repair.

I'm in Hawaii and it takes a while/costs a lot to get parts out here, so I'd like to make sure I do it right the first time.

My plan right now is to order inner and outer wheel bearings and two rear wheel seals. I'm looking on Wolfsburg West right now. Bus Depot has a kit, but the low price is making me suspect about the quality. I've not seen anything to indicate that the inner bearing is in bad shape, but I figure that it can't hurt to have an extra one around. Also, the inner bearings are not the expensive ones--it's the outer bearings that are pricey (at some vendors).

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/Detai ... 211501283D

http://www.busdepot.com/211501287k

Two questions:

1. If you've done this job before, is there anything else I should order to ensure that I am prepared?

2. Anyone buy these parts before? Any feedback on vendors or where to get good bearings?

Thanks!

Dave
-Dave

1977 Westy Deluxe--The Green Lantern

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ruckman101
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:10 pm

Brass drifts. Minimizes the risk of damage, and they work. I found that the cheaper bearings had fewer bearings in them. Do notice the count of the bearings in the different assemblies available.

neal
The slipper has no teeth.

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thesamwise4
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by thesamwise4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:52 pm

Thanks for the advice, King Bwana! I used it when ordering the parts. I went with the WW ones.

More to come in about two or three days, I think...
-Dave

1977 Westy Deluxe--The Green Lantern

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RSorak 71Westy
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Re: 77 Westy--Roller bearing assembly question

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:43 am

Polite reminder still waiting......
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.

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