Fancy Pants' Oil Leak - lots of detail

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fancy pants
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Fancy Pants' Oil Leak - lots of detail

Post by fancy pants » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:21 pm

I am not trying to compete with Hambone's oil leak, but since we are on the subject...

I have been chasing this one for ~ 6 months and have done the following by myself or through a shop:

1. Front seal replaced - the one behind the fan (self)
2. Breather box sealed (Trafton)
3. Dipstick boot replaced (Trafton)
4. Oil cooler replaced (Trafton)
5. Push rod tubes sealed (Trafton), redone by Colin and I

I have gone through 3/4 quart in the last 70 miles. When I park I get a pool up to a foot in diameter from underneath the fan housing, several pools under the R heater box, and a pool under the L heater box. Case pressure seems minimal. There is negative pressure at the oil fill tube at idle, and what I would consider a small amt of positive pressure at higher rpm. 2 shops have stated that case pressure does not seem to be excessive, but that there is some.

Yesterday (saturday) I followed Colin's instructions and permatexed the right cylinder head washers/nuts (question - should there be "play" in the bolts?). Prior to this, I spent 4+ hours cleaning (and cleaning and cleaning). For as much time as Colin and I spent cleaning oil 70 miles ago, the amount of oil present was a bit unsettling.

I will use rear to mean rear of bus.

Starting from the top, there was oil accumulated right front and underneath/around the breather box area, but the box itself seemed dry. The breather tube was wet form the box about 3 inches out. Oil also in rear of the fan under the dipstick tube and oil fill tube. Moving underneath, the first thing that I noticed was that the tubes from both heater boxes to the heater fan were not seated and that there was oil coming out where both of these should connect to the exchangers. Also, there was oil dripping from where the left heater box meets the exhaust, which then appeared to drip down the bottom of the fan housing. Lots of oil on top of the left lower tin. The area above the push rod tubes was wet, but the tubes themselves did not appear to be the source. There was oil between the oil cooler and the front of the fan housing, with the foam strip on the bottom of the cooler very wet. Not sure if the cooler was the source - could have just been dripping down the fan housing? Bottom of oil filter wet.

After cleaning, permatexing and closing back up, I idled in the driveway for 30 min. Saw drops form below where the frontmost pushrod tube on R side meets outer housing (? sorry 'bout my uneducated terminology). Also some drops on bottom center of fan housing. I let it sit overnight and this morning saw oil on ground under the fan housing center, oil accumulated where oil fill tube pass through tin (on bottom side of tin). There was oil on the ground underneath the hole at the front of the left heater box. Oil where both heater boxes meet the fan housing. There was also oil on the ground underneath the frontmost right push rod tube, where it meets the outer housing. It looked to have been dripping from above, and down the outside of the head, maybe??? Top of the engine completely dry.

Finally, I drove it 10 miles on the freeway today and saw the following:

1. Lots of oil dripping from front hole in left heater box
2. Lots of oil coming from where both heater boxes lead to fan, and where right heater box meets exhaust
3. Oil on bottom of oil filter and minimal amt above where it meets the cooler.
4. Oil on bottom of fan housing coming from rear center.
5. Oil fill tube coated with oil after it passes through from top of engine. Top of oil fill tube was dry.
6. Oil dripping from the outer housing for the frontmost right pushrod tube, seemed to be coming from above on the outside of the head.
7. Lots of oil in in rear of fan on top (accumulating in center and under dipstick and oil fill tube)
8. Oil on back of fan housing on top next to and to the right of the breather box and tube, toward cyl #2 area.

Sorry for all of the detail :pukeleft:

I am really at the edge of my abilities here and appreciate any help.

If there is a local who has an hour or 2 to look this over and help with identifying the source I have burgers and beer :cheers:

Thanks to all in advance!
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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Amskeptic
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Re: Fancy Pants' Oil Leak - lots of detail

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:52 pm

fancy pants wrote: oil accumulated
oil fill
oil coming out
oil dripping from where
oil on top
oil between
oil very wet.
oil on ground
oil accumulated
oil on the ground underneath.
Oil meet.
oil on the ground right.

Top of engine completely dry.

Lots of oil dripping
Lots of oil lead to fan,
Oil on bottom
Oil on rear.
Oil coat .
Oil dripping
Lots of oil on top in center and under oil
Oil on back




If there is a local who has an hour or 2 to look this over and help with identifying the source I have burgers and beer :cheers:

Thanks to all in advance!
I am devoted to a solution here, and I am frustrated with my distance from Portland too. This cannot be, this annoying long saga. How hard is it to stop leaks on a glorified lawn mower engine? This poor guy has been through the grinder and we, this forum, us people, we HAVE GOT TO WIN THIS ONE!
ColinStillHotInNevada
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:58 pm

Obviously it is in both heat exchangers and going through the fan, which really complicates the picture. The 2 possible sources that I see are the breather box (but the box itself was dry - just the area underneath and rear right were wet), or something dripping down the outer rt head at the rear. The rest all appeared to be related to the amts already in the heat exchangers. The oil appears to be entering the right heat exchanger from the top, due to the leak on the outside of the head (?). That is my best guess at least.

Someone suggested that there is a dye made that can be added to the oil and makes it easier to spot fresh oil. Would that make it easier to decipher fresh vs stuff that is already in the heat exchangers? If so, what is the name of the stuff.
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:05 am

what are we thinking for an initial stab? Oil coming from behind the fan and getting blown all over? Was end play checked? Does the oil smell gassy?
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:20 am

I am at a loss. It seems to be a right side leak. The oil on top, to the right of the breather box doesn't seem to be part of the stuff being blown around, but I may be wrong. The breather box itself seems dry. Then there is area along the front side of the right head that may be a source. So many variables... The oil is not gassy...
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:22 am

How about this, good people of Portland? I am willing to provide beer and burgers for a Special Thursday night "lucky lab" at my place. The price of admission is an analysis of my leaks. I just want to make sure I am not missing something stupid before I pull the engine.

Who's in?

(Colin - be sure to tell them how good my burgers are...)
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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hambone
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Post by hambone » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:31 am

Not sure if your bus is driveable but I think there is another Lab gathering on Thursday. Not sure who is attending.
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it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:15 pm

The bus runs and drives great - better than ever in fact! That is why I am so reluctant to pull the engine if I don't have to. I am trying to minimize my driving, as I am dumping up to 3/4 quart per 100 miles right now, and it seems to be getting worse.

I can easily meet up with everyone at the Lab on Thursday with the bus, but thought it would be easier for me to dive in if I cold convince folks to gather here.

Did I mention free beer and burgers??

It doesn't have to happen Thursday either, if there is a better day. I just feel like I am at a point where I am beyond myself right now and could use some direction and moral support.
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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satchmo
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Post by satchmo » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:42 pm

You have tightened or replaced the oil pressure sender, yes? Oil leaking there just flows down everywhere and leaves the top of the engine looking pretty clean.

Sometimes the oil pressure sender has been overtightened by the gorilla PO or mechanic and there is a stripped hole in the case. In that event you won't cure the problem by tightening the sender any more. There is some liquid thread sealant available that might help seal the threads, maintain your switch ground at the same time, and stop the leak. You can also insert the oil pressure switch with teflon tape around the threads and see if that helps (the oil pressure light will be on due to the lack of a ground from the teflon tape, but you can ignore it for oil leak diagnostic purposes for a while). If the case is totally stripped where the oil pressure switch is, well, only a Timesert or something will work.

Tim
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:51 pm

I have thought about the oil pressure sender, but the leak is primarily on the right side. Everything around and below the sender looks dry. I guess it is easy enough to replace, but I fell pretty confident that it is somewhere else. At this point, I probably shouldn't be confident about anything though...
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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Gypsie
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Post by Gypsie » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:31 am

Hey John.....Lookin' fer ya to do some huntin' fer leaks.

If anyone has a contact number for John "Fancy Pants" the singin' cowboy give him a call or zip it to me via PM.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:01 am

So, Gypsie was generous enough to swing by yesterday to provide another pair of eyes. There is a large amount of oil on the right side, which seems to be coming from the area of the case/head interface (?). It is really difficult to track this down due to the huge amount of oil blown around, despite my clean-up efforts. The bulk of the oil seems to be pulling in back of the fan (dipstick area), but no evidence of oil coming up through the dipstick and no evidence of case pressure. We removed the fan and ran it at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes (closely monitoring temp gauges) and saw nothing in the are of the fan seal or the oil cooler. Put the fan back and idled for a good 20 minutes, with revs and still no drips. Took it for a 15 mile drive, parked it and watched oil pouring from everywhere (fan housing, left and right heat exchanger areas). Looks like a good 1/2 cup+ is on the ground, and you could follow my trail of oil drips down the street, bout every 10 feet or so. After a total of 25 miles, I have lost greater than 1/4 quart of oil.

The mystery continues...

I intend to have one last fling at the Pickathon (60-70 miles round trip) next weekend and then the engine comes out. I will be purchasing carbon offsets for the oil lost in the process :geek:

Thanks for all of your help, Gypsie. Unfortunately, you confirmed my suspicions
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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hambone
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Post by hambone » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:07 am

That is a lot of oil, I can't believe you guys couldn't see the source.
Could there be a problem with the case? Cracks? Bad cylinder bores?
The only way to really know for sure is to pull the engine and remove the tin. Sounds like you've done all you can otherwise.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:16 am

Yeah, I just don't understand how it can idle all day, with sustained revs of 3000, and not shed any oil.

It seems to get worse every time I drive it, which is causing me to reconsider whether I am comfortable using it to transport the family to the Pickathon (in Boring) next weekend.

Apart from the hemorrhaging, it is running as strong as can be...
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:58 pm

Drove the bus this weekend to the Pickathon and the leak seems to be getting worse yet again. Lost 1/2 qt of oil over 35 miles! On the way home she was running hot (250 oil temp, 80 degree outside air) on surface roads. She was also struggling to maintain speed and seemed to be lacking power.

For now she has earned some time off and I will be pulling the engine in the next week or so.
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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