78 westy cylinder head issues

[metric Cwrench]

i'm cleaning up my westy, making slow progress against rust and exploring my engine. the engine is out, and today i managed to defeat the rusty tin screws and remove the rest of the tin and uncovered a lovely nest over #1 and #2 cylinder head.

the things were pervasive in my bus, sad to say. at least i think it's vermin-free now (after lots and lots of cleaning and leaving traps everywhere in the garage).

i'm looking for advice on what to do here. i've already vacuumed the heads, and was planning on looking at the valves and cylinders (had low compression: #1- 125, #2- 85, #3- 120,#4- 140). i had added a bit of oil and retested, but i seem to have lost the results of that test in the 4.5 yr the bus sat in the garage waiting for me to be properly motivated. it's a 2L with FI, hydraulic lifters (i believe). she sat in a barn for well over a decade before i got her, hence the mice. i knew there was a probable valve and/or ring job in the near future, but am wondering if there's more to do considering the vermin. also, i've never done either valve or ring job (have bentley, muir and these here forums for my resources).

[Amskeptic]

i'm looking for advice on what to do here.
was planning on looking at the valves and cylinders
(had low compression: #1- 125, #2- 85, #3- 120,#4- 140).

am wondering if there's more to do considering the vermin.

If the nest was only built during the sit, I'd clean it and put it back together with a careful valve adjusgtment and cylinder head retorque and drive it. Then recheck the compression after a couple of hundred miles of easy street driving. Douse the cylinders with a couple of oilcan squirts of oil through the spark plug holes before your first start. Allow for a bit of oil smoke to burn out in the first 20 minutes of operation.

Get to know what you have before you embark upon a big engine job.
IMO
Colin

[metric Cwrench]

cleaning is my task this evening. is this a good job for gumout? other cleaner? just old-school elbow grease? (i've a good supply of the latter)

question regarding valve adjustment: i haven't been able to find details on this specific to hyd. lifters. i was (quite likely mistakenly) told there are no adjustments to make on my bus. i really have wondered about that- it seemed wrong.

as for this bus, i was neglegent for over 4yr; i intend to rectify that. i had begun to remove the engine shortly after i bought this bus, just finished the removal early last week. yes, i am ashamed it took me so long to straighten out my priorities.

as it happens, amskeptic did an evaluation and diagnosis on my bus before i bought her (i've got the write-up, dated 08-09-04), and so i knew there were some specific things to be done.

lots of "little" things to do (fuel lines, get a timing scale, inspect and replace exhaust and heat works, make sure there are no more mouse condos in there, etc, etc). it's all helping me understand how she functions, a good thing. i thought i would work through the proceedures muir lists for engine overhaul and get a better idea of what i need to plan for in the future (immediate, near, distant). in the meantime, i'm also working on the body: fighting rust, get to do some welding (i'm new to that, but looking forward to it), then she's gonna get thorough media blasting, epoxy primer and "chassis saver" (underbody, interior floors, and possibly interior wall panels below window level). i intend to keep this bus going a long time.

i really appreciate the advice and help. i've learned soo much in the last few weeks of reading through topics on this site. thanks to all of you dedicated air-cooled folks.

ps- i'm planning on getting on the list for a workday with amskeptic next year, to continue my vw education.

[metric Cwrench]

making progress... finally got the exhaust components (rather the rusted remnants of) off the engine. opened up both valve covers- very cool, never done this before. nearly lost a finger putting spring back on after taking a peek at them (didn't want to leave them uncovered right now).

hydraulic lifters or not? i don't know how to tell, i've been assuming (yes, i know that's probably foolish) that as my bus is a 78, it had hyd. lifters. now that i have looked under the valve cover, ok, i see adjusting screws and nuts- so they can be adjusted? would i follow the same proceedure to check/adjust valves (like in the muir book)?

if i remove the cylinder head, i should be able to inspect the pistons and rings, right? seems to me it would be a good idea to at least look to see if the pistons, cylinder and rings are ok. inspecting them doesn't look to be beyond my capabilities (and i've never done this before, i'm having fun with this). i'd be able to judge if i need nothing, rings only, or the whole she-bang.

it's all a learning experience for me, and i do enjoy bonding with my bus.

[Bleyseng]

pretty hard telling just by looking at the pistons/cylinders if they are ok..as they need to be measured. Better to use a leak down test to see the condition of em but if it been sitting a long time just run it. How many miles on the engine?

Too clean the outside of the engine I use Simple Green or any of the spray bottles of cleaner plus for really hard stuff Brake Cleaner spray.

All valves/heads have adjusters, the hydro lifters just keep the adjustments to a minimum.

[metric Cwrench]

this is going beyond my head issues, i'll start up a resto thread over in type 2.

thanks for advice and consulting, i appreciate every little bit of help- keeps me from doing something(s) i'll regret later.

[metric Cwrench]

back to head issues- i will stick to cleaning up the heads (along with the rest of the engine) and reassemble. i will try, very hard, to not think about "exploring" my valves and cylinders until after i've got real data to go on. it's good advice, and i should (and will) follow it.

till i have said data, i'll let this thread lie dormant. forewarned though, it may be a while before i get my body work done and can even think of putting the engine back in.

btw, this bus has 135,000mi (sat a total of 20 of its years in barn or garage).

also, under both valve covers all is covered in oil. it's like a heavy film, accumulated about a teaspoon or two of oil on the ledge below the valves. is this a normal condition? just curious.

[metric Cwrench]

quick question, should i use gumout (or other spray carb cleaner) on the area under the valve cover- like where the adjusting screws and rocker arms live?? i was thinking that and a toothbrush wouldgo a long way toward removing the black grime that has settled there. i have an old gun cleaning kit that should work well at getting the nastiness out from the fins around the cylinders. same type cleaner ok there, too?

i've been using dish soap and scrub brushes on the engine tin with reasonable success, might try that before carb cleaner-type stuff.

i'm hesitant to attempt cleaning the engine block, as there are many places for things to go, what do not belong there and might cause havoc and trauma. when the engine's back in the bus, i'll take the power washer to it (low pressure setting) to get the other crud off. that seemed to be a general consensus of the best way to wash engine gunk off (thread was here, somewhere). then i can take it out and work on accumulating the "couple of hundred miles of easy street driving" (per colin).

thanks-
phred

[RSorak 71Westy]

The oil you found in the valve covers was normal. No real need to clean this area, unless the black gunk is thick.....

On the outside, it just needs the big hunks cleaned off. The little stuff doesn't do much to impede cooling.

[Oregon72]

I would think the carb cleaner would do the trick for the gunk on your engine.

[metric Cwrench]

thanks guys, that's what ah needed to know. all this week i'll be working on cleaning these parts and the engine tin (that needs paint, too). i got a laugh when i uncovered this beneath gunk on the tin. vw karma? i'm gonna put those numbers back on, after paint- hee hee

[metric Cwrench]

hello again. i am ready to get a valve job, i think. i have been directed toward a shop nearby by a friend with plenty of experience (just not with vw's).

if i understand the bentley manual, i am going to be asking them to measure/test: the spring tension, keepers, seat and valve facings (reconditioned, if necessary to 3-angle specs i'll be providing them copied from bentley, noting the differences between intake and exhaust angles), and guides.

just wanted to fly this to see if i have my ducks lined up.

i haven't yet spoken to the shop myself, but if they don't respond positively, i'll be looking for a different shop to do the work. this needs to be done correctly, the first time.

please let me know if i misunderstood something, or if there are some things i should be asking the shop before handing over my heads.

thanks so much for help and info

[Amskeptic]

hello again. i am ready to get a valve job, i think. i have been directed toward a shop nearby by a friend with plenty of experience (just not with vw's).

if i understand the bentley manual, i am going to be asking them to measure/test: the spring tension, keepers, seat and valve facings (reconditioned, if necessary to 3-angle specs i'll be providing them copied from bentley, noting the differences between intake and exhaust angles), and guides.

just wanted to fly this to see if i have my ducks lined up.

i haven't yet spoken to the shop myself, but if they don't respond positively, i'll be looking for a different shop to do the work. this needs to be done correctly, the first time.

please let me know if i misunderstood something, or if there are some things i should be asking the shop before handing over my heads.

thanks so much for help and info

So you have decided to tear the engine down?

Just a friendly warning, even brilliant water-cooled machinists can get tripped on the subtlety of this German engineering. For example, if you need new valve guides, they may NOT be driven out in the wrong direction (they should be drilled and extracted for best results), the new guides should have a serious interference fit, they MUST be chilled and installed in pre-heated heads. Phosphor or manganese bronze is best, if they do a quicky catalogue look-up, you could end up with the usual JC Whitney soft brass crap.
Can they spot valve seat recession?
Etc . . .
Colin

[metric Cwrench]

colin- i had to get some cleaning done, and the heads had to come off to allow for that. since i had the heads off, the pistons and cylinders just kind of called to me... "come and look at us, see how we work..."

i couldn't resist. i've never seriously looked at an engine before, and i didn't ever delve to understand my first bus (and i've been berating myself for some time about that). i've found this experience to be rather informative and educational, and inspiring me.

i knew that there were some serious, or potentially serious, issues with the engine. and i knew (as has been pointed out here, before, and advice i've thought long and hard on) that i didn't have the full picture regarding my engine's vital stats.

i read and reread muir and bentley, then went to work, carefully. i measured the pistons and cylinders and found them to be well within wear limits; putting on new rings is pretty cheap and may allow me some needed manuevering room for the short to mid-term.

i has a shop recommended to me, and it was close by and costs should be reasonable. so a valve job seemed to be in order- having them cleaned, inspected and if necessary reconditioned would go a long way to ease my mind, and if done properly- will also help to give my engine the long life it deserves.

that said, the valve job has to be done correctly, or it would be better not having it done at all. if the shop that was recommended to me hasn't had experience with ac vw's, and/or if i don't get a good feel from their responses to my questions, they don't get my heads.

i haven't committed to anything just yet. i'd rather put them back on (when the engine goes back in the bus) and do the more thorough tests that i should have done in the first place (and i will most certainly remember that one in the future)- and if tests indicate a valve job, i'll spend more $$ and ship them out to an ac vw specialist.

i was searching for questions and answers to put to the shop so i could get a feel for their competency with my baby's heart chambers. i got some, and i thank you for that. i'll use them.

i'm taking my time and trying to be as thorough as i can with everything else on the bus, i don't want to monkey it all up by rushing into a poor-quality valve job. as always, i am thankful and grateful for the input.

[Amskeptic]

colin- i couldn't resist.

i've never seriously looked at an engine before, and i didn't ever delve to understand my first bus (and i've been berating myself for some time about that). i've found this experience to be rather informative and educational, and inspiring me.

That is the way its done.
If your curiosity got the better of you, that is the Fire that gets you through. Been there . . . many times.
I still marvel at the parts I have held in my own hands back there driving me around this gorgeous country.

Ask abundant questions and be as informed as you can.
Colin