Don's Engine Refurbish: 10,500 Miles Later, Running Great!

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:09 pm

Amskeptic wrote: A) #2 is a split bearing. What do you mean it is hard to turn by hand and sticky?
Sorry, TYPO!!! :joker: I meant to say that the #3 is hard to turn by hand. I'm not sure what I meant by sticky, other than it's hard to turn by hand and does not glide like the #1.
Amskeptic wrote: C) It is fretted, but if you do not have craters and tits like breaker points, don't worry about it.
No craters and tits, just a nice, smooth, gray finish.
Amskeptic wrote:come on! you could not possibly have been able to turn that engine during assembly with the dowel off-register
Is it possible that the bearing overheated/locked for another reason (like lack of lubrication when the oil filter clogged with assembly grease and blew its gasket the first time I started the engine after he rebuilt it) and turned in its saddle? Could it have also shifted again later to cause my engine lockup?
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Randy in Maine
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Post by Randy in Maine » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:11 pm

They guy who built that engine is not nearly as good as he thinks he is.

Even a rookie would not have made that mistake unless he was 1) careless and 2) did not have to push the bus when it siezed.
79 VW Bus

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:19 pm

Picture of the journal is below (a little blurry, sorry).... It doesn't feel too bad. Think it will clean up with some emery cloth?

Do you think this could be the cause of the thumping noise we heard??

As far as an "engine wide event".... The engine certainly ran a while after it happened, and the bearings that I can see (including camshaft) look OK. So maybe I lucked out???

I'm going to talk to him ASAP...

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Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:28 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Or could he have freshly f**ked up and missed the fact that the engine wasn't rotating worth a crap when he put the case halves together???
Interesting.... I wonder if that's why it wouldn't idle when I first got it back from him after replacing the cam. I thought it was the camshaft itself. Maybe there was so much drag that it couldn't....

I need a beer.
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:52 pm

vwlover77 wrote: A #3 is hard to turn by hand.

B Is it possible that the bearing overheated/locked for another reason (like lack of lubrication when the oil filter clogged with assembly grease and blew its gasket the first time I started the engine after he rebuilt it) and turned in its saddle? Could it have also shifted again later to cause my engine lockup?
A) That is a bad news symptom. Tear it on down.

B) No. Absolutely not. The only way a bearing can turn after a correct installation is when the engine is completely screwed and the bearing has welded itself to the crankshaft with lots of bluing and heat and copper smears. Stop. The engine builder needs your laser focus and conviction, so pull it together. Don't get mushy polite. We all get screwed down the line when these idiots think we're idiots. You put a lot of effort and joy into this thing and have had nothing but crap idling and lifter trouble and cam trouble and now #4 bearing material in the oil destroying all of your other parts and contaminating the cooler. Stop. Put it all together. Tell that slack-jawed drooling moron to step away from any mechanical device more complicated than lincoln logs and give you back your damn money because you promise that will be the least painful option for him, you have hundreds of friend here who have watched in horrified amazement as each sordid chapter unfolded, we have watched you lose your thrill and get despondent and sell your house and divorce and end up on the parkbench weeping quietly to the pigeons, "it coulda been a contenda"
Colin :blackeye:

(is this the guy who gave you .056 cylinder shims and extra extra deck height??? whyioughtta. . . .)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:10 pm

=D>

I'm going to be paying him a visit next weekend..... We'll see.....

Can I try to get the gear stack off with a gear puller, or should I leave the job to a shop?
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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germansupplyscott
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Post by germansupplyscott » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:32 pm

vwlover77 wrote:Can I try to get the gear stack off with a gear puller, or should I leave the job to a shop?
removing that gear is difficult with a gear puller, there isn't much to grab onto and you can damage the large gear with the wrong tool.

we use a bearing splitter in the shop press. there are arm-type gear pullers that will work, but they need to have really thin pointy jaws to get in the space available.
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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:03 am

By the way, what point is there in having an oil filter if not to keep the oil cooler and bearings from being contaminated?

Does some oil bypass the filter on its way out of the oil pump?
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:40 am

vwlover77 wrote:By the way, what point is there in having an oil filter if not to keep the oil cooler and bearings from being contaminated?

Does some oil bypass the filter on its way out of the oil pump?
Although the contamination issue is actually far more serious with a Type 1 engine, I bring it up as but one of your list of concerns to address with this engine builder to help you get back up and running.

The scenario with a Type 4 engine does include damaging the oil pump which is upstream of the oil filter. Only in rare instances does the oil filter get bypassed, when very cold thick oil hits the media or when it is seriously clogged.

Now consider the path of the oil transmitting your wiped bearing material and shards of crankshaft journal. It gets flung out of the bearing and washes the crank/camshaft gears with metal shards/flakes that then add camshaft gear magnesium to the mix. This oil can get flung into the crankcase splash and deposited on lobes and lifters. Eventually it does get down to the sump where some of it will separate from the oil stream. When the damaged bearing oil is picked up and sent to the pump, it is loaded with particulates that give the oil a grey color. The bearing babbit is not much of a problem, the magnesium particles from the exposed cam gear are. The filter will remove the larger particles. Though the remaining particles will be smaller than the oil clearances, but they are not necessarily smaller than the oil film which is the layer of oil that survives the load placed on it. This increases abrasiveness over time, not an abrasiveness that you can feel with your fingers but an abrasiveness that can disturb the smooth finishes between lobes and lifters and gear teeth and much more slowly the main and connecting rod bearings. Subsequent oil changes will, of course, diminish the effects. But do not ever rely on the oil filter to protect you from metallurgical failures in the engine. You will do better to assume contamination has occurred. As for the cooler, Tom Wilson and others say throw it away if you have ever dropped a valve or thrown a rod, I don't quite agree with that, a thorough cleaning and a couple of trips through a parts washer followed by another thorough cleaning should take care of it, but take it seriously. You have metal failure and plenty of nooks and crannies in your engine. And this was all totally unnecessary.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:40 pm

I've been in touch with the builder....

I'm visiting his shop on Saturday. My impression of what he's going to do to get me going is as follows:

1. Disassemble crankshaft, repair/clean up journals, install new bearing, and reassemble.
2. Provide a new set of the remaining bearings, and an engine gasket kit.
3. Clean the case halves in his cleaning tank.
4. Clean out the oil cooler.

This is in addition to swapping my cam and lifters for a new set (stock cam grind).

Unfortunately, a full refund does not seem to be in the cards....

If he offered to reassemble the engine, I would decline. I want to do it myself at this point.

Small gesture, but appreciated: He apologized for everything that has happened thus far.

I've been in touch with a local machine shop used by a drag-racing co-worker for his balancing projects and they will be happy to balance everything for around $100.

With any luck (which has certainly been lacking thus-far), I should have a nice running engine when this is all done!
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:54 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
My impression of what he's going to do to get me going is as follows:

1. Disassemble crankshaft, repair/clean up journals, install new bearing, and reassemble.
2. Provide a new set of the remaining bearings, and an engine gasket kit.
3. Clean the case halves in his cleaning tank.
4. Clean out the oil cooler.
This is in addition to swapping my cam and lifters for a new set (stock cam grind).

a full refund does not seem to be in the cards....
Small gesture, but appreciated: He apologized for everything
that has happened thus far.

If he offered to reassemble the engine, I would decline.
Let's try to advance from impressions to a documented contract by the end of Saturday. It is axiomatic of today's business world that vendor/providers refuse to acknowledge in any way the value of your labor or aggravation. As a provider of a service, I wouldn't listen to the more hysterical of my unhappy customers (when I finally bag one) claim that their convenience has been compromised.

An apology is very nice and all, fresh parts are a necessary part of it all, but I am pretty sure that if if I was on engine teardown #2 with the same mechanic, I would say, "this is the point that you actually make an offer against the time I will be spending to fix your screw-up, we agree that you must not touch my engine ever again."

At any rate, not my business, I am rooting for a very successful outcome to your travails.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:52 am

I visited the shop today. My impressions were correct. I will be getting all the bearings, a new stock cam and lifters, case cleaning, gasket kit, and crankshaft repair/reassembly at no charge.

I will also receive a store credit for parts/accessories as some compensation for my time and aggravation.

We discussed the camshaft situation in more detail. Apparently he consulted with CB Performance by phone about the "Torque Special" camshaft prior to purchasing it, and they indicated to him that it would work in a stock fuel-injected engine with "no problems", even though their website states otherwise. He has used it in other engine builds with dual carbs without problems.

I should be able to pick up everything next weekend.
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:24 pm

vwlover77 wrote: Apparently he consulted with CB Performance by phone about the "Torque Special" camshaft prior to purchasing it, and they indicated to him that it would work in a stock fuel-injected engine with "no problems", even though their website states otherwise. He has used it in other engine builds with dual carbs without problems.
[brooklyn accent - on]
HeEY, diz guy don't know "problems" dat whack'm on da side a da head like a trout. I DON'T TINK SO, lookat dat bearing ya got. [/accent]

Dual carbs like big honking 44's. He is not talking about stock dual carbs, tell me he is not talking about stock carbs.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:24 pm

Amskeptic wrote: [brooklyn accent - on]
HeEY, diz guy don't know "problems" dat whack'm on da side a da head like a trout. I DON'T TINK SO, lookat dat bearing ya got. [/accent]
Yes, he was a bit speechless as he looked over the bearing.

Amskeptic wrote: Dual carbs like big honking 44's. He is not talking about stock dual carbs, tell me he is not talking about stock carbs.
I didn't ask specifically, but I'm guessing big honking 44s for some guy who wants to put a hopped up Type 4 motor in his dune buggy. (Buggies seem to be his "bread and butter")
Don

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78 Westy
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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:01 am

Update: I'm still waiting for the crankshaft to be cleaned up and my other parts to arrive (camshaft, gasket kit, etc.).

Last Thursday, I took my pistons and rods into a local machine shop recommended by a drag-racing friend at work. His claim is that all the other shops in the area send their balancing work to this one.

A basic no-nonsense name: "Canton Automotive Machine". It's in the old, "industrial" end of Canton, Ohio. The only identification I could find on the building was the weather-worn word "CAMS" painted on the front of the building. Not even the street number could be found (I guessed it from the building next door).

I walked in carrying my box of parts to find a busy place. The guy at the counter asked if he could help me, and what was in the box. When I replied that I had pistons and rods I'd like to have weight-matched, he said, "Your box isn't big enough!" When I opened it, he said, with surprise, "Hey! Those are VW parts!"

Now, in this part of the country, having someone even recognize the parts was a huge confidence builder for me!

He then took the time to explain how the parts would be balanced and where material would be removed. We also discussed balancing the entire crankshaft assembly when it's ready. Apparently, they have done work for some VW drag-racers and he seemed to speak with good knowledge of the built-up crankshaft.

I should be able to pick up the pistons and rods in the next day or so. I'm hoping for good results!
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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