Don's Engine Refurbish: 10,500 Miles Later, Running Great!

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vwlover77
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Don's Engine Refurbish: 10,500 Miles Later, Running Great!

Post by vwlover77 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:11 pm

The case is split! That pesky bolt down low between #3 an #4 was holding me up.

The cam appears to have been installed correctly, with the slot lining up with the dot on the gear and the two dots on the crank gear on either side of the cam gear dot.

My connecting rods have different numbers written on them in black magic marker, all in the 700s, like "792". Would this be their weight in grams? Could the crank and rods actually have been balanced????

Photos below....

The source of my woes: The "Torque Special" cam
Image

Check out that counterweighted crank! Does the crank bearing surface look OK?
Image

Camshaft gear mesh - all looks good
Image

Does this bearing look OK?
Image

Other half of the case
Image
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:26 am

It is difficult for us to make any reliable determinations with photographs. The flash alone bleaches out forensic evidence, such as scored journals and fretted main bearing saddles. Photographs are good for sharing the obvious evidences of traumatic failures, like " see how the valve ended up embedded in the headliner?"
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:41 am

Nice and clean in there though!! Least ya' won't have much scrubbin' to do.
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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Adventurewagen
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Post by Adventurewagen » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:02 am

Looking good. I'll be interested to see the progress as things move along!
63 Gulf Blue Notch
71 Sierra Yellow Adventurewagen
DjEep wrote:Velo? Are you being "over-run"? Do you need to swim through a sea of Mexican anchor-babies to get to your bus in the morning?
:wav:

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:30 pm

Welllllllllll....... My budget for this project is what would be considered "shoestring", so I'm probably not going to be able to pay a shop to balance everything. Considering that I'll put a few thousand miles a year on the Bus at most, I think I'm going to take my chances.....

I pulled the barrel shims tonight and they measure .056"! So, if I lose those and keep the sealing rings, my deck should be in the .040" to .050" range, which would result in a reasonable CR.

Jim, if you can send me the photo, I'll check it out. I'm pretty sure the cam is installed correctly, though.

As far as the cam measurements, I don't really have the setup to check it accurately, but I may be able to get some "ballpark" numbers....
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Post by Amskeptic » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:46 pm

vwlover77 wrote:My budget for this project is what would be considered "shoestring", so I'm probably not going to be able to pay a shop to balance everything. I'm going to take my chances.....

I pulled the barrel shims tonight and they measure .056"! So, if I lose those and keep the sealing rings, my deck should be in the .040" to .050" range, which would result in a reasonable CR.
Don, I lost a half day with Sylvester (also on a shoestring but Exxon Mobil doesn't care about easing my fuel expenses). I say we do a half day consult/mock-up to see why these numbers are so stunningly out of spec. As I remember it, you trusted your engine guy as a stand-up kind of guy.

I am due in Atlanta the evening of the 26th. We could do any time on the 25th if you are interested. You will have to have parts cleaned and organized. I also want to do the split-case endplay check method. . .
if yer intrested that is.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:51 am

A recap from the other thread viewtopic.php?t=2986 (which we'll abandon and continue here in a single thread)
VWLover77 wrote: I pulled the cylinder shims off. They measure .056" thick!!!!!

Can I eliminate the shim? Is there a paper gasket or something that I should use?
Amskeptic wrote: .056? Crazy! Was this going to be a turbo motor and somebody forgot to put on the turbo????

Oh yeah, wrist pin is allowed to barely slide through the connecting rod, but should be a press into the piston. . . unless it has been sitting out in the sun, then a light press fit is OK. You can get away with slightly looser than optimal. . . . .

Type 4 engines do not use paper. You can go straight to a light lap/clean and use Permatex Aviation at the base lip of the barrels.
Colin

VWLover77 wrote: No press fit here! The parts were sitting around in the garage, at 65 degree ambient temperature. I had no problem pushing them out of the piston and wrist pin by hand. They are Brazilian Mahles if that makes any difference.

Bentley says "Pin fit in the piston must be a light push fit at room temperature or with the piston heated to 167 deg F in an oil bath".

Now that makes no sense!
The Air-Cooled Ranch wrote: Don:

I'm sorta torn here between answering on this thread or the 'tother... Sheesh - .056" shim, call it .060" after manufacturing tolerances. Definitely be rid of it and just use some fav sealant 'twixt the barrel and the case, and/or whatever barrel shim it takes to make good on the ideal deck height number... but if you get a good static CR number sans any shim at all, so much the better.

Don't get all caught up in a tenth of a point here or there if that's the way things pan out (i.e. 7.7:1 vs 7.8:1), but get worried if your calculations are showing you something like 11.5:1 'cause you eliminated a tad too much shim thickness Right now this engine is a living example of what happens when you create something with a low static CR and a GIANT deck height number, vs a higher static CR and a fairly tight deck number. Within reason and running on pump gas, I'll take something with a nice tight deck and higher static CR ANY day of the week over the other version of unreality...

Thimk about getting it balanced - even places like Rimco out here only charge around $75 for your basic, street-worthy balancing job. It's kinda like this - sheee-it, cowboy; you already got the c/w crank in there to help out in the flexing dept., why not make sure the whole she-bang works the way it ought to? You have it all down to the nubs now... Bob Hoover swore up and down he'd see nothing less than 5% or as much as 10% more available horse-pressure from a good balance job. VW's '30s-era specs are pretty pathetic in this day and age. And it's not like a bus couldn't use that much of an increase, run cooler and more fuel efficient for a miserable $75 over the life of the engine

On piston pins... I was cleaning up and prepping some 1600 barrels for painting - warmed them up with a hair drier after washing them. Pushed out the pistons and the pins dropped out of their own free will, pretty as you please. If yours easily pushed out on such a low miles engine, no worries. As they get LOTS of miles on them, they'll require more persuasion to come out on their own due to crud and whatnot that just accumulates over the life of the thing.
_________________
Jim Hayden
The Air-Cooled Ranch - Prop.
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:11 am

Questions and more questions... I'm a newbie to this stuff inside the case!

1. For my stock engine, is a balance of both ends of the connecting rods really required? If not, I was thinking I could balance the pistons and rods myself if I can get access to a decent scale.

2. To balance the crankshaft assembly, do I need to remove the bearing trapped by the shrink-fit gear? I was hoping to avoid having to remove and replace that gear.

3. Can I resuse the head sealing rings or do I need to purchase new ones?

Thanks!
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:17 am

vwlover77 wrote:Questions and more questions... I'm a newbie to this stuff inside the case!

1. For my stock engine, is a balance of both ends of the connecting rods really required? If not, I was thinking I could balance the pistons and rods myself if I can get access to a decent scale.

2. To balance the crankshaft assembly, do I need to remove the bearing trapped by the shrink-fit gear? I was hoping to avoid having to remove and replace that gear.

3. Can I reuse the head sealing rings?

Thanks!
1. Yes.
2. Yes
3. Hell no.

Colin :pirate:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 am

Amskeptic wrote: 3. Hell no.
As in "Hell no, you can't use them again once they're squished"
-OR-
As in "Hell no, you ain't puttin ANY sealing rings back in that motor"
Don

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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:11 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: 3. Hell no.
As in "Hell no, you can't use them again once they're squished"
-OR-
As in "Hell no, you ain't puttin ANY sealing rings back in that motor"
Don, you used the word "REuse." I answered that. Nowhere in my quarter century of VWs have I ever gotten dogmatic about not using them. Just recently in fact:
The sealing rings from the factory were usually .030" that I have found to squish pretty consistently down to .028"and were designed to cover up the usual tolerance discrepancies found in mass-production. They did serve as "canaries in the coal mine"* as far as head leaks. If you overheated the engine, they would indeed be prone to leaks as the clamping force dropped due to overexpansion squishing the case spigots/head spigots/sealing rings themselves.
(*canaries: blown sealing rings are not a primary cause of leaks but symptoms of loss of clamping force*)

Nowadays, the only reason you want to use the sealing rings is if some knucklehead over-flycut your heads. If your barrels bang into the heads on the outer surface near the fins, the spigot hole is too deep, you need to use sealing rings. If you are in a road warrior get-er-home mode, sealing rings can also be necessary if you have damaged surfaces or lack of parallel between the barrels as they come off the case or a lack of parallel between the head spigots in the head. This is clearly evident if you have evidence of head leaks in the parallel-to-ground plane. Head leaks in the vertical plane can be caused by low head torque from some prior overheat event, so it is more difficult to determine.
Did you read my engine teardown in Indiana? I am using .060 copper sealing rings on the left side of my engine and factory .028s on the right.
Ya think I am telling people not to use them? THINK AGAIN. :king:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

Got it! Well, then, I think maybe I'll get some new ones.... :cyclopsani:
Don

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"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:32 pm

Today I finally lifted the crankshaft assembly out of the case half.

The #1 main bearing glides around the crankshaft, and slides on and off easily.

However, the #3 bearing is hard to turn by hand and sticky. The small surface of the crank that I can see by sliding it to either side seems to look OK. Is this a cause for concern?

Look at the # 4 main bearing!!!! What in the world happened to it? Would this have possibly been the cause of 1) the horrible intermittent "tock tock" noise I had at idle before the camshaft was replaced and/or 2) the reason for my mysterious one-time engine lock-up incident???

Image
Image

I also got some pictures that give a better view of the case fretting at the #2 main. Is this excessive enough to be a cause for concern?

Image
Image

Here's the same area on one of the other bearings. No fretting going on at #1 or #3 - they all look very similar to this.

Image
Don

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78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:55 pm

vwlover77 wrote: A #2 bearing is hard to turn by hand and sticky.

B Look at the # 4 main bearing!!!!
C case fretting at the #2 main. Is this excessive?
A) #2 is a split bearing. What do you mean it is hard to turn by hand and sticky?

B) That guy who built your engine should be taken out behind the shop and shot dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead DEAD. That poor engine, what the hell?

C) It is fretted, but if you do not have craters and tits like breaker points, don't worry about it. That poor engine! What the hell?
Colin
(come on! you coul;d not possibly have been able to turn that engine during assembly with the dowel off-register, dammitallidiotswhotakeyourmoneyandruinyourstuffcalltheguy! new bearings! Free! Push him, Don! Accountability!)
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:59 pm

vwlover77 wrote: Look at the # 4 main bearing!!!! What in the world happened to it? Would this have possibly been the cause of 1) the horrible intermittent "tock tock" noise I had at idle before the camshaft was replaced and/or 2) the reason for my mysterious one-time engine lock-up incident???
Don, that is a wiped bearing. That is also a potential engine-wide + cooler contamination event. I don't know if it could have been responsible for pre-camshaft noise, but let's say it was. . . could that guy have torn the engine down and replaced the cam without noticing?????? Or could he have freshly f**ked up and missed the fact that the engine wasn't rotating worth a crap when he put the case halves together???

You are owed new bearings if not a refund as far as I am concerned.
#4 journal on the crankshaft is OK?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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