Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

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vwlover77
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Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:35 pm

4 months and 1700 miles ago, I had the strange situation of finding a hydraulic lifter that I previously set to 1-3/4 turns losing contact with the valve stem after backing it out only 3/4 of a turn.
Unsure of the cause, I corrected the adjustment and went happily on my way.
That incident was chronicled here:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13823

Well, just a few days ago, I started noticing an intermittent valve clacking noise from the driver's side of the engine after it was fully warmed up. I figured I'd better check the adjustment again, and lo and behold, that same #3 valve lost contact with the valve stem lash cap after backing it out only 3/4 of a turn.

What the heck is happening here? The only thing I can figure is that somehow the lifter is messed up so that the piston is getting stuck in the lifter and is unable to move as far toward the pushrod as it should. Any other thoughts?
I'm planning to buy and install a new lifter to see if that makes any difference.....
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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SlowLane
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by SlowLane » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 pm

Valve clearance opening up suggests wear to me, either at the cam-to-lifter interface, or at the adjusting screw-to-valve tip interface. Have you checked the state of your adjusting screws?

You're not running swivel-foot adjusting screws with a hydraulic cam, are you? That's a no-no.

Of course Colin will come in soon with the perfectly-obvious-once-pointed-out correct answer.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:30 pm

SlowLane wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 pm
Valve clearance opening up suggests wear to me, either at the cam-to-lifter interface, or at the adjusting screw-to-valve tip interface. Have you checked the state of your adjusting screws?

You're not running swivel-foot adjusting screws with a hydraulic cam, are you? That's a no-no.

Of course Colin will come in soon with the perfectly-obvious-once-pointed-out correct answer.
Hi! I think it must be the zone valve sticking. That is the only reason, on a call for heat, that you would get good Delta T between the supply and the return but a chilly east wing of the house.
Colin
(Don, pull the lifter. If it is concave, that is why the preload is dropping. Look in the lifter bore and rotate the engine until you see the lobe come past. If the lobe is damaged, how about rebuilding the engine this winter? If it is perfectly shiny and straight, replace the offending lifter and use serious good Valvoline Synthetic as a lifter heel/cam lobe paste. Check its mate across the engine as well. Might as well check all of the lifters)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:22 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:30 pm
Hi! I think it must be the zone valve sticking. That is the only reason, on a call for heat, that you would get good Delta T between the supply and the return but a chilly east wing of the house.
Colin
Oh no!!! Colin is having an HVAC flashback!! Get that man a Diet Coke STAT!!!

I shall pull the lifter and report forthwith. (No swivel-feet here!)
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:08 am

vwlover77 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:22 am
Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:30 pm
Hi! I think it must be the zone valve sticking. That is the only reason, on a call for heat, that you would get good Delta T between the supply and the return but a chilly east wing of the house.
Colin
Oh no!!! Colin is having an HVAC flashback!! Get that man a Diet Coke STAT!!!

I shall pull the lifter and report forthwith. (No swivel-feet here!)

Cleanliness counts big-time here. Clean push rod tube bores before disassembly ...
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:53 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:08 am
Cleanliness counts big-time here. Clean push rod tube bores before disassembly ...
Everything was clean and ready to go, but.......

My effort to extract the lifter from its bore ended in failure. Neither magnets nor wire hooks could coax it out. Within its range of movement, it slides and spins easily. I think the issue was getting the OD of the main part of the lifter started into the outer bore of the case. I couldn't get it aligned just right with my limited access.

Below are photos of the adjustment screw face, lash cap top and bottom, and valve stem. Note that the end of the valve stem had damage from a trapped piece of debris that was "cleaned up" by me a couple of years ago when the lash cap was installed.

Although it looks like there's a huge dent in the lash cap, it's just a wear pattern. It feels perfectly flat.

In the end, I put it all back together without the lash cap, and adjusted the lifter to 2 turns. All quiet so far (which is about 15 miles / 30 minutes of run-time.) We shall see.....

Image
Image
Image
Image
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:25 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:53 am

My effort to extract the lifter from its bore ended in failure. Neither magnets nor wire hooks could coax it out. All quiet so far (which is about 15 miles / 30 minutes of run-time.) We shall see.....

A) Varnish in the bore, GumOut paper towel scrub of the bore, followed by a little oil and magnet?

B) The lifter may be mushroomed. Ask tristessa about the lifter disaster at Maupin. He wore the bottom right off his lifter.

If clearance opens up again, you will be "out" when you run out of adjustment screw.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:00 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:25 pm
A) Varnish in the bore
B) The lifter may be mushroomed
I don't think it's varnish in the bore. It slides out easily with no resistance initially and then seems to hit a hard stop. Oh boy.

I'll see if I can get the opposite side out to have a look at the cam lobe.

Should I be finding debris in the oil strainer plate?
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:45 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:00 pm

I'll see if I can get the opposite side out to have a look at the cam lobe.

Should I be finding debris in the oil strainer plate?
You'd think there would be metallic particles if the lifter bottom failed catastrophically, but if it just plain ol' wore through the surface hardness, then no.
Curioser and curioser ...
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:37 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:25 pm
If clearance opens up again, you will be "out" when you run out of adjustment screw.
Luckily, when I run out of adjustment screw, I can put the lash cap back on and buy myself some more time! :geek:

Seriously, is it OK to keep driving it, or should I call it a year and pull the engine?
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:50 am

vwlover77 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:37 am
Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:25 pm
If clearance opens up again, you will be "out" when you run out of adjustment screw.
Luckily, when I run out of adjustment screw, I can put the lash cap back on and buy myself some more time! :geek:

Seriously, is it OK to keep driving it, or should I call it a year and pull the engine?

Keep driving AND get the opposing lifter out.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:44 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:50 am
Keep driving AND get the opposing lifter out.
The opposing lifter came out as easy as pie. See photos below.
The first photo (attempt) of the cam is the heel.
The second photo (attempt) of the cam is the lobe.

The potentially mushrooming lifter has a wire spring retainer, but this lifter has a circlip. That reminded me that the lifter I can't remove is a replacement put in a few years ago in an attempt to stop constant overnight bleed-down. It didn't really help, and apparently the replacement lifter was/is junk.

Continue to drive, or stop now and tear down?

Image
Image
Image

Cam heel
Image

Cam lobe
Image
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:01 am

vwlover77 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:44 pm

The second photo (attempt) of the cam is the lobe.

Continue to drive, or stop now and tear down?
Can you see/feel the cathedral window mark on the lobe? If yes to the feel, the camshaft has worn through the surface hardening and the clock is ticking ...

I could not glean the salient question on the lifter photograph. Is the contact surface flat? Sharp edges?
Colin

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by vwlover77 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:03 am

I did my best to run a flat screwdriver blade across the peak of the lobe and it seemed flat with no “catches”. But given how I had to contort myself to accomplish that, I’m not 100% sure about it.

The lifter in question is the #3 valve at the far left of the diagram. (Is that intake or exhaust?)

The #1 lifter face is perfectly flat and smooth. No ridges or sharp edges.

My plan at this point is to restrict my driving to short local trips until the end of the season and then pull the engine. My golden retriever has lymphoma and will not be with us much longer. She loves riding in the Bus, and I want her final ride to be in it. :-(
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness - Part 2

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:50 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:03 am
I did my best to run a flat screwdriver blade across the peak of the lobe and it seemed flat with no “catches”. But given how I had to contort myself to accomplish that, I’m not 100% sure about it.

The lifter in question is the #3 valve at the far left of the diagram. (Is that intake or exhaust?)

The #1 lifter face is perfectly flat and smooth. No ridges or sharp edges.

My plan at this point is to restrict my driving to short local trips until the end of the season and then pull the engine. My golden retriever has lymphoma and will not be with us much longer. She loves riding in the Bus, and I want her final ride to be in it. :-(

You need a metal straight edge across the bottom of the lifter with a bright backlight to see the light between the lifter and the straight edge. If you see light between the edges, it is flat. If you see light at the edges, it is convex, it is fresh.

I'd certainly drive it. If you have been keeping track of valve adjustments, your warning is if it loses all preload in a couple of hundred miles ....
Colin
(she's a lucky loved companion ... I have seen too many dogs have an entirely different experience)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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