1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

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greg73
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1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:24 am

Allright, as you will see I am quite new to this. I searched through the forum here as well as Thesamba and a German one but did not find a conclusive answer. I am concerned, however.
I did an oil change this weekend and found grey / silver slurry and small metal debris on the bottom of my taco plate. Nothing too big and the oil strainer was quite clean. It all seemed to be Aluminum. My fuel injected engine runs quite nicely without any concerning sounds (at least to me). It starts right up every time and never gave me trouble. Based on what I read it looks as if the motor might have a serious issue. Or not. I am trying to find out how serious it might be and whether to wait and see or to call an ambulance.
I own the bus for a year now and don't know too much about it's history but do not think the engine was ever rebuilt since I have a number of service documents which do show anything done on the motor. It has probably 150,000 miles on it, I drove 4000 so far.

Thanks
Gregor

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sgkent
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by sgkent » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:32 pm

silver sheen to the oil, or gray clay like deposits can be normal wear. Chunks are not good but occasional sand grain particles can also be normal. One way to tell is send the oil to a lab for analysis. They can tell you what metals are in the oil and therefore the likely source. As an example of what can be in the oil, older engines that had STP added in years past often had a gray clay like material / film that collected. Also if the oil is not detergent oil, more dirt can collect at the bottom of the sump. One last thought is that if you are the first person to pull an inspection plate in 20 years and 80,000 miles there will be an accumulation of tiny pieces there - gasket pieces, RTV small metal parts that came off during assembly etc. If the pieces come back every oil change that is not good. ALSO DO NOT over tighten the strainer nut on a late bay. 9 Ft LBS only. Any more can destroy the engine.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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greg73
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:10 pm

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I started inquiring on engine rebuilding capacity at the local shops. I am torn between taking it to a shop and having the motor inspected / rebuilt right away or whether to drive another thousand miles and monitor the oil. I am concerned that driving it, I run the risk of causing some considerable damage to the case. Most everything else would go in a rebuild anyway.
Thanks for the heads up on the torque, I was aware of that and took care to not over tighten it.

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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by asiab3 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:01 pm

Hi Gregor,

Was this your first oil change on the engine since you've owned the car? Or, when was the last oil change you performed? After any incident with colors/debris in the oil, I like to change the filter. Back in the day, VW thought your filter only needed to be changed every other oil change, but hydraulic lifters prefer clean oil, so I don't mind spending the extra few bucks every 3,000 miles for a new filter.

I have also found dragging a magnet through oil deposits can tell if if the particles are ferrous or not; this would indicate cam/lifter wear if the particles are.

Good luck, and welcome again to IAC!
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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greg73
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:17 pm

This was my first oil change and strainer check. The previous oil change was done 4000 miles prior but the strainer was not checked. I am in touch with the previous owner but think the strainer was not touched for a while. Dang, I should have used a magnet and taken pictures. When I checked it I guessed it is not too bad and probably normal wear. I am quite certain the metal was aluminum and I did change the filter. Anyway, now after reading up on this I am of course second guessing everything.
What would be other helpful diagnostics, oil pressure, compression, engine sounds ... anything else?

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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by sgkent » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:29 am

check it again in 3,000 miles. Take it easy until then. The particles could have been carbon, piston scuffing from running hot, wear on the timing gear, etc. That screen may not have been off since the engine was last rebuilt so the debris may seem worse than it really is.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

Merlin The Wrench

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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:47 pm

greg73 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:17 pm
This was my first oil change and strainer check. The previous oil change was done 4000 miles prior but the strainer was not checked. I am in touch with the previous owner but think the strainer was not touched for a while. Dang, I should have used a magnet and taken pictures. When I checked it I guessed it is not too bad and probably normal wear. I am quite certain the metal was aluminum and I did change the filter. Anyway, now after reading up on this I am of course second guessing everything.
What would be other helpful diagnostics, oil pressure, compression, engine sounds ... anything else?


Settle down. Drive it. Next oil change strainer clean will likely show a nice normal situation.

I like your obsessive panic, I do, nurture it, but be sensible. If the above junk showed up in a thousand miles or less, I would be alert. But 4,000 miles AND no recall of when the strainer was last pulled? Pshaw.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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greg73
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:56 pm

Thank you everyone for the feedback and calming words. I will drive it this summer and see what happens. I checked in with a fellow on a German forum who had pretty much the same issue and kept driving with no incident so far. I know statistically this is insignificant but is reassuring nonetheless.

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greg73
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:28 pm

I did another Oil change this weekend (2500 miles after the last one) and unfortunately still found aluminum in my oil. This time at least I took pictures and checked if the pieces are magnetic. No magnetism detected so I am confident it is aluminum only. The pieces I found are extremely thin shavings, similar to leaf gold in thickness and will crumble on contact. Here an image of the taco plate just after taking it off.
IMG_7874.JPG
Taco Plate
Here an image of one of the bigger flakes. Not very in focus, though
IMG_7887.JPG
Flake
Might be time to save for that rebuild...
:pale:

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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by asiab3 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:40 pm

Do you think it could be like this faulty cam bearing a friend of mine found last year? (The image may be unavailable at night due to web restrictions on his site…)

Image


From this page:
http://flowcon.us/td/engineBuild/

Thoughts?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:19 am

greg73 wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:28 pm
I did another Oil change this weekend (2500 miles after the last one) and unfortunately still found aluminum in my oil. This time at least I took pictures and checked if the pieces are magnetic. No magnetism detected so I am confident it is aluminum only. The pieces I found are extremely thin shavings, similar to leaf gold in thickness and will crumble on contact. Here an image of the taco plate just after taking it off.
IMG_7874.JPG

Here an image of one of the bigger flakes. Not very in focus, though

IMG_7887.JPG

Might be time to save for that rebuild...
:pale:

If you have your old oil filter, cut it open and check the media. I am still not all concerned.

Robbie, hard for me to tell the surface color on those cam bearings. If they are blackened, it sort of looks like hyper-heat shear scuffing from too thick of a moly-based grease at initial start-up. The shell that would fail first would be on the "windward" side (left case half).

Gregor, the flakes don't suggest bearing material to me. How about a camshaft gear? Do you hear any unusual clatters at idle emanating from the center of the engine under the fan that go away when you rev the engine?
Were our valve adjustments normal, or did we point out an opposing pair of valves that both had "wear" readings (less than 1 1/2 turns to "0" point?)
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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greg73
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:02 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:19 am
Gregor, the flakes don't suggest bearing material to me. How about a camshaft gear? Do you hear any unusual clatters at idle emanating from the center of the engine under the fan that go away when you rev the engine?
Were our valve adjustments normal, or did we point out an opposing pair of valves that both had "wear" readings (less than 1 1/2 turns to "0" point?)
Hi Colin,

I did not change the filter this tie around since it was only 2500 miles after the last filter change. What would i look for when cutting it open?
I need to check on the clatters at idle. I don't recall anything but also never listened for it.
We did encounter wear at 4 & 2.

Cheers
Gregor

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greg73
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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by greg73 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:30 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:40 pm
Do you think it could be like this faulty cam bearing a friend of mine found last year?
Not sure, The pieces looked more like shaved off with something sharp. Would bearing material be magnetic? The pieces I found were not and looked much like Aluminum. :scratch:

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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by asiab3 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:56 pm

greg73 wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:02 am
I did not change the filter this tie around since it was only 2500 miles after the last filter change. What would i look for when cutting it open?
If an engine is producing metallic particles, it is wise to change the oil filter with eery oil change. When we cut up the old one; try to use a tool that produces no metal "sawdust" to interfere with your careful visual inspection and macro photography of the filter innards.

Here's a lousy photo I found on Google; once the filter element is on your workbench, pry the folds apart and look for similar metal particles like the ones on your strainer plate.

Image


Good luck!
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 1978 Bus - Oil change - Grey slurry and some metal debris

Post by Jivermo » Tue May 15, 2018 8:40 pm

Since this post was brought up on the FB Itinerant page, I’m curious as to what has occurred since. An update, please, greg73?

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