Rebuild or swap?!

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Dave91
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Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:53 am

Hello Everyone! I am new to this forum, my name is Dave and i live in the mont-tremblant area, north of montreal!
I am a member at theSamba and heard about you guys through someone there!
I have a 1980 air cooled vanagon that was apperently in very good condition and well taken care of (westfalia mechanic from ste agathe looked at it when i purchased it)
Just over a month after buying it, without warning (temp. Gauge stayed at 350F as usual) the engine over heated and now im being faced with a big decision that hopefully you guys can make my decision more clear or direct me in the right direction!
When this happened, i felt a loss of strength going up a hill and couldnt go faster then 50-60km/h.. So i decided to turn around to head home but the van staled and wouldnt start again. So i opened the back to try and see what the priblem is, was hoping to fix it on the side of the highway and keep going but steam came out and i burnt my fingers on the metal clips to access the engine... It happened so quick and the gauge, which works, didnt display higher then 350F...
I wasn't expecting such a big expense so close to the date of purchase so obviously cost will matter, unfortunately.
The van is at Michel Becker's garage on the 117 in ste agathe, he is clearly a fan of water cooled and so in his mind, its not worth a rebuild, the only thing worth is a full transfer to make it water cooled.
So i looked into it and a new engine plus making it water cooled, the price is quite high... But a rebuild is about 4000$.
Im leaning more towards the rebuild and keeping it air cooled but im planing a trip with my girlfriend to the west coast and after spending all this money, we dont want to face anymore big problems! (Its a vanagon, somethigg will happen but hipefully not another 1000$++ expense...)
What would be the main reason someone who is know for air cooled mechanics would charge me 5000$ and the other mechanic is charging me 3000$...? Both said they would put in all new parts and it sounds like they would be doing the same job..
Thanks for everyone help! Looking forward to hearing from you guys!!
Dave

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the miz
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by the miz » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:31 am

Hi Dave,
...as the owner of an '82 AC Westy, I know the thought of converting to Waterboxer or Subaru is a tempting one...the question is: is what you would spend on it worth the result/effort/cash layout for the vehicle you have or would you be better off just buying a post '83.5 (better yet post '86) Vanagon or an already Subaru converted Van?

It might be best to stay true to the initial design of the vehicle and remain air cooled. Having just purchased a "turn-key" rebuilt engine for my '82 a year ago, I'd recommend that you make a winter project of rebuilding the engine yourself; if I had it to do over again, I would probably decide to try to figure out how to "do it myself" versus buying a rebuilt engine or having a mechanic do it for me. I think others on this forum might echo my sentiment; several of us have had less than stellar experiences with Type 4 engine rebuilders (some of whom are among the most highly regarded in the field). I certainly wouldn't take it to a mechanic you don't know personally...even if they claim to be a Vanagon or ACVW expert (I've gotten hosed on this too, recently) and someone who comes right out and says they are a "Waterboxer Fan" may not be the best person to leave your ACVW with...

You've got a big trip planned...basically across the continent...when you have big problems along the way, do you want to stand on the shoulder cursing the name of the rebuilder in vain... not knowing what they did and why the engine is malfunctioning? ...or would you rather know, intimately, what was done in the rebuild process and what the problem might be...and what it definitely is not? Having been in the former situation, which touched off many months of "new no working engine" and theorizing about "why?"...which ultimately ended up in sending the engine back to the builder for rework, I think I'd have preferred to be in the latter situation.

If you hang out on this forum long enough, you will realize that the motto/raison d'etre is basically: You are the best mechanic for your ACVW!

...my quick 2 cents,
miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:58 pm

No question! Rebuild it yourself! My rebuild cost about $1200, took three weeks to get the parts and finish, and has run like a top for 10k miles. It is not difficult, if you have tools and desire. Buy the books, both the Bentley and Tom Wilson's how to. Also get Muir's idiot guide, then read them. Great satisfaction, and beautiful art results.

Any questions, post them here. Do not under circumstances go cheap on parts...if you want it to make your crosscountry haul.

Btw, I also have an 80 Vanagon...first rebuild, I did a partial, used crap parts, and it lasted less than 600 miles...$800 down the drain. Second time, I did the complete job. Well worth it!

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Amskeptic
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:32 pm

Rebuild it yourself. The satisfaction is something you get to enjoy for the rest of your life.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:45 am

Thanks for allthe answers and help!
I understand and agree with doing it myself but right now is my busiest time of the year and we plan on leaving to travel begining of october...
I found a well known vanagon mechanic who does air cooled vans and he rebuilt some cars for family friends who told me he was very good, will probably brig it there.
I talked to someone yesterday recommending to install an oil cooling system under the van, any opinions about this?? Thank you!!

Jivermo
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Jivermo » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:51 am

Nix on the add on oil cooling system. You don't need it.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:02 pm

Jivermo wrote:Nix on the add on oil cooling system. You don't need it.
Second that.

Today was 104* on southbound CA-99 @ 60-70 mph for three hours . . . 2.0L air-cooled shoving a westy, oil temps 246*.
Perfect.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:55 am

The mechanic who told me it would cost about $3000, called me last night to say he took it all apart and it rlly over heated and will cost around $4000 now...
My parents offered me their garage where i could do the rebuild myself and my fathers good friend has done a few rebuilds in old vw's so he offered to help...
I guess you guys were right, i will learn all about the engine of my van and i hopefully will become my best mechanic.
And all pieces together will cost me about 1500$..??
Should i purchase all pieces online? Busdepot?
Thank you!!

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Amskeptic
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:10 am

Dave91 wrote:hopefully will become my best mechanic.
Should i purchase all pieces online? Busdepot?
Thank you!!
Try to avoid "convenience" of one-stop shopping, and seek the best parts you can from whatever the source.
Air-Cooled Net has some quality parts, BugHaus has some quality parts, but please research and ask here as necessary.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wcfvw69
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:48 pm

Glad to hear you're doing the rebuild yourself. I've rebuilt a few Type 1 engines and they really are not hard to do at all. You just have to study, study and study before you start putting it back together. There's a type 4 video being sold that is suppose to be excellent. Jake Raby is instructing on it as well. That and the Tom Wilson book along with a Bentley and you'll be good to go.

There's TONS of information online as well. Many links and video's on youtube and The Samba. As Colin mentioned, get the best parts you can buy. Have a shop that REALLY knows air cooled VW's rebuild the heads and check the case and other parts. BALANCE the rotating assembly as well.

Best of all, enjoy the experience. There's NOTHING like starting up an engine you personally rebuilt and assembled for the first time!
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Mulcheese
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Mulcheese » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:42 am

Dave91 wrote:Hello Everyone! I am new to this forum, my name is Dave and i live in the mont-tremblant area, north of montreal!
I am a member at theSamba and heard about you guys through someone there!Dave
That person I do believe was me. Glad to see you made it over here Dave. The advice that you get here will be by far the best for you and the van. Congrats on the home rebuild decision. As a result of this if/when the van does have issues down the road you will have a GREAT understanding of the workings of the van. These engines are very simplistic yet incredibly engineered machines. You will feel proud to be a ACVW owner when it is all through. If you intend on owning this van for long then you will need to become the best mechanic for it. As many have said there are so many resources out there that you should have no problem getting the job done and done right. Keep us updated.

Pat
"attending to things in the moment with curiosity and acceptance."
____________________
82 Vanagon Westy - aka: Honey Badger - "cause she just dont give a ...."

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:00 am

Mulcheese wrote:
Dave91 wrote:Hello Everyone! I am new to this forum, my name is Dave and i live in the mont-tremblant area, north of montreal!
I am a member at theSamba and heard about you guys through someone there!Dave
That person I do believe was me. Glad to see you made it over here Dave. The advice that you get here will be by far the best for you and the van. Congrats on the home rebuild decision. As a result of this if/when the van does have issues down the road you will have a GREAT understanding of the workings of the van. These engines are very simplistic yet incredibly engineered machines. You will feel proud to be a ACVW owner when it is all through. If you intend on owning this van for long then you will need to become the best mechanic for it. As many have said there are so many resources out there that you should have no problem getting the job done and done right. Keep us updated.

Pat
Hey! Well thanks again for sending me over here! Everyone seems to be on the same page of me doig the rebuild myself! So i think i will take on the project! I was wondering, is there any where i can find a list of parts ill need to order? Id like to start shopping and looking around the different websites...
I have no backgroubd in mechanical work.. I know the basics, so this is a huge project, challenge and all new to me, but i am so excited!
Will the books mentionned above tell me everything i need to know about a rebuild? (How to keep your vw alive, and the tom wilson book)
The tom wilson seems to be only about rebuilding so is this a step by step type book?
I wanted to take the time to thank everyone who has replied and helped me make this big decision, thank you!!

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:05 am

Also wondering as far as tools and what ill need... Im a cabinet maker so i have many tools, but probably not all mechanic tools...

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:24 pm

Tom Wilson is step by step. Follow it exactly...if not, you miss that hidden bolt in the middle of the case. I know of no list, but here's what I had to replace:

Gasket set. $70
Pistons and cylinders. $450
Heads, rebuild or replace $500-900
Cam shaft and lifter set $250? I forget....
Crankshaft bearings $80
Cam bearings $30
Rod bearings $30
Front and rear oil seals $20
Head space and compression ratio gaskets and spacers
Any peripheral bits that you break while disassembling
New tin screws, cause the old ones are eaten up
Exhaust gaskets, cause a new phfizzy engine sucks

As for tools...
Sockets and good screw drivers
Dial caliper, micrometer, head cc kit (homemade), depth gauge, two jaw puller maybe, oil pump puller (homemade), plastigauge, torque wrench (get a good one)...

I now hate Harbor Freight...but the tools were mostly adequate. If you can get better, do so.

You will probably want to take the case and crankshaft to a good shop to have it checked over and turned as needed. The bottom end on the type iv is legendary, so it may be good to go. Mine was. If not, figure in more money for machining. I had to replace only one head, and I used a knock off...I will likely regret that decision.

Go slow and steady, and don't get mad at it. Be careful with rusted studs...they break easily. Buy lots of PB Blaster or similar, wrags, paper towels, and brake cleaner, plus some degreaser that is safe on aluminum.
Good luck and keep us posted!

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:26 pm

Also, a good floor jack and tall jack stands!

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