82 Camper Timing not to spec

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MountainPrana
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82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Mon May 09, 2016 1:50 pm

So I'm trying to figure out why my timing is at 32* BTDC both with a static light and with the timing light at an idle of about 900 of which it struggles to maintain. This is a rebuild by Head Flow Masters which has been running (ish) in the van since October 10th 2014. We had help from a local to the area shop which is no longer around to get it running. One of the things (there were quite a few) that they said was wrong, was the timing which they adjusted. We drove the van locally for a few months a few days every other week as my wife and I were working as field guides in a wilderness therapy setting so were gone at work for 8 days and then would have 6 off. We were never happy with the power, it just seemed to bog down and not go nearly the pace as with the previous motor. One day in early April 2015 we started to have trouble with starting or it would just die and then not restart. Thought that I had that fixed with new points but the problem came up again the day before leaving to hike the Pacific Crest Trail on April 6th 2015. We had the van towed to a parking spot in our storage area and there she sat until April 27th 2016 when we finally returned to Saint George for a week in order to pack and move to Jackson Hole for the summer to work at the National Elk Refuge which is where we are at now, with Odyssa our 82.
One of the things that I found out when I was getting Odyssa running is the timing. I hadn't looked at it before and when I tried to change it to 7.5 BTDC she wouldn't even run. I ended up leaving it at 32* BTDC because we had to do the drive to Jackson, which ended up being very slow but we did get here. I have read most of the posts on here about the HFM rebuilds and the Hold Off For Now Thread and maybe it would be good to make a list of everything wrong that I have found and put the story up on that thread, but for now I'd really like to get the timing thing figured out. The dog gear is way off at TDC for #1 firing (I've checked and rechecked TDC with having my wife roll the van back in forth while in fourth gear and the valves on 1 are still while the valves on 3 rock so I know we are in the right place.) and the rotor is one cylinder firing position counter clockwise from where the pics on Jivermos post are but the wires compensate for that the clockwise order is still 1,4,3,2 and it points to 1 at TDC.
In one of the other HFM threads there is mention of non-stock cams? I'm wondering if that would affect timing, I'm not sure what Adrian put in ours. Also I would love to fix the dog gear if it's best and am wondering if there is a good write up on it somewhere on here. I've only found bits and pieces spread throughout different posts.

Timreallywantingtogetthisthingrunningthewayit'ssupposedto

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MountainPrana
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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Mon May 09, 2016 5:56 pm

Found this in another topic titled "Distributor Weirdness" and wonder if it could relate to my situation as well? I pulled the distributor and the two plates have quite a bit of gummy friction.
Amskeptic wrote:Lubricate the centrifugal weight pivots and the felt at the very top of the shaft under the rotor. They commonly don't return to "base" consistently if they are lacking lubrication.
Colin
It definitely was not sitting at base.

Tim

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 09, 2016 6:15 pm

MountainPrana wrote:Found this in another topic titled "Distributor Weirdness" and wonder if it could relate to my situation as well? I pulled the distributor and the two plates have quite a bit of gummy friction.
Amskeptic wrote:Lubricate the centrifugal weight pivots and the felt at the very top of the shaft under the rotor. They commonly don't return to "base" consistently if they are lacking lubrication.
Colin
It definitely was not sitting at base.
Tim
Unfortunately, there is no way for us to answer definitively which cam is in your engine. Yes, please, lubricate the distributor so the breaker point plate can glide frictionlessly and return to full retract without correction.

Is this a SVDA, DVDA or 009 distributor? Stock or aftermarket exhaust?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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MountainPrana
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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Mon May 09, 2016 6:50 pm

It is an 050 series. From what I've read that makes it a single vacuum dual advance, right? One hose and centrifugal weight down in there. It's what Adrian put on it, as it was a turn key. It came back with California stock exhaust much to my surprise... not sure why as it's a federal model.

Timlearnedhislessonaboutlettingmechanicsmonkeywithhisstuff

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MountainPrana
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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Mon May 09, 2016 8:43 pm

Well it cleaned up nicely enough. :sunny:
IMG_5369.jpg
IMG_5369.jpg (25.31 KiB) Viewed 4477 times
Still have to oil the felt wick, which I was amazed to see was in there.

Tim

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the miz
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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by the miz » Tue May 10, 2016 10:03 am

Amskeptic wrote: Unfortunately, there is no way for us to answer definitively which cam is in your engine.
Colin
FWIW: chances are it is a Schneider No. 1, which was reportedly Adrian's preferred cam for ~20 years.
MountainPrana wrote:So I'm trying to figure out why my timing is at 32* BTDC both with a static light and with the timing light at an idle of about 900 of which it struggles to maintain. This is a rebuild by Head Flow Masters which has been running (ish) in the van since October 10th 2014. We had help from a local to the area shop which is no longer around to get it running. One of the things (there were quite a few) that they said was wrong, was the timing which they adjusted. We drove the van locally for a few months a few days every other week as my wife and I were working as field guides in a wilderness therapy setting so were gone at work for 8 days and then would have 6 off. We were never happy with the power, it just seemed to bog down and not go nearly the pace as with the previous motor. One day in early April 2015 we started to have trouble with starting or it would just die and then not restart. Thought that I had that fixed with new points but the problem came up again the day before leaving to hike the Pacific Crest Trail on April 6th 2015. We had the van towed to a parking spot in our storage area and there she sat until April 27th 2016 when we finally returned to Saint George for a week in order to pack and move to Jackson Hole for the summer to work at the National Elk Refuge which is where we are at now, with Odyssa our 82.

Timreallywantingtogetthisthingrunningthewayit'ssupposedto
...why does this all sound so familiar? ..I'll find out if the cam was the culprit soon enough...
miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by Amskeptic » Tue May 10, 2016 10:25 am

MountainPrana wrote:It is an 050 SVDA.
It came back with California stock exhaust much to my surprise... not sure why as it's a federal model.

Timlearnedhislessonaboutlettingmechanicsmonkeywithhisstuff
What do you mean, it came back with a California stock exhaust?
Did you send him your engine?
Did you send him your federal exhaust system?
Is/was that your preferred system?
Was your exhaust system in good condition?

Did you perchance, write down your engine number?
Did you get your engine back?

Do you know that you appear to be the fourth person within the past year, that I have heard wondering what happened the engine/parts they sent in?
Did you know that, in each case, the three prior confused people received lousier parts than what they sent in?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Tue May 10, 2016 2:21 pm

Amskeptic wrote: What do you mean, it came back with a California stock exhaust?
Did you send him your engine?
Did you send him your federal exhaust system?
Is/was that your preferred system?
Was your exhaust system in good condition?
My wife and I dropped out the original engine and pallet shipped it to him from our storage unit in Saint George with the heat exchangers but kept everything behind that (crossover, cat and muffler). The heat exchanger on the left side had a hole so I could see why that got replaced but it wasn't my preference to have it replaced with the cali equipment. I couldn't get one of the heat risers or heater control flap box off so I sent that along on the engine and didn't get that stuff back. Ended up having to replace it.
Amskeptic wrote: Did you perchance, write down your engine number?
Did you get your engine back?


I didn't think to write it down... I wish I knew all that I know now, and all that I will know now that I have determined to be my own mechanic! It has been quite a learning experience.
Amskeptic wrote: Do you know that you appear to be the fourth person within the past year, that I have heard wondering what happened the engine/parts they sent in?
Did you know that, in each case, the three prior confused people received lousier parts than what they sent in?
Colin
I wish I had read all the reviews and posts before we got into this mess, I would have done the repairs myself. My wife is, I think, left with a worse taste in her mouth than I am. I spent so much time trying to get a hold of Adrian on the phone and with email, when we had questions about things. He's a really busy guy, I get that, and he's always been super nice when I have finally talked to him. That being said I think that there are some oversights with this motor that are inexcusable and I just don't have the energy to be livid and patient. So I will take the bull by the horns and try to fix the issues one at a time. I believe strongly that I will be better off for the experience. We do too much traveling down lonesome desert roads to not know Odyssa our van inside and out!

I do want to take a moment to say thanks to you for this amazing website, I only found it about two weeks ago and have already learned an exponential amount more than I have ever known about mechanicing and VW's. This is truly a labor of love. In my teens and early 20's during the late 80's and early 90's I had 4 different volksies and still kick myself for not taking care of them the way I should have. Young and dumb as they say. I want to make up for that with Odyssa. I also have to say that the overview topic in the mission statement is awesome and it meant a lot to me to feel the passion in the words.

Tim

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Tue May 10, 2016 2:38 pm

the miz wrote: FWIW: chances are it is a Schneider No. 1, which was reportedly Adrian's preferred cam for ~20 years.
Any idea if this would affect ignition timing?
the miz wrote: ...why does this all sound so familiar? ..I'll find out if the cam was the culprit soon enough...
Dang, sure am sorry that your dealing with this as well. I don't think that I've read the whole thread on your experience but I do remember seeing something where you asked Adrian if you have hydraulic or solid lifters. I need to look at that more carefully because I definitely have some issue with the lifters not letting me adjust them. They just push the valves open so the motor has really low compression.

Tim

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by the miz » Wed May 11, 2016 7:00 am

MountainPrana wrote:[
Any idea if this would affect ignition timing?

Dang, sure am sorry that your dealing with this as well. I don't think that I've read the whole thread on your experience but I do remember seeing something where you asked Adrian if you have hydraulic or solid lifters. I need to look at that more carefully because I definitely have some issue with the lifters not letting me adjust them. They just push the valves open so the motor has really low compression.

Tim
I guess I never made the timing connection, necessarily...all I know is that my engine was timed properly and suffered from the same symptoms as yours...rough idle...dies after a period of idling...won't restart. I tried, unsuccessfully, to troubleshoot for 6 months before I had enough, pulled the engine and sent it back to Adrian. I visited him in his shop in March...he said: "the problem is the cam". You can tap into my HFM saga here: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=12582 .
I also think I recall Colin talking about another customer with one of these engines and a situation on the phone with Adrian, where Colin was told to advance(?) the timing beyond factory spec., but you might want to check that out with Colin...it might have been THall and the timing advancement (?) was clearly not an appropriate fix.

I too am sorry that you are going through this, it is a disheartening experience.
I think THall and I are a bit ahead of you in the HFM Cam replacement timeline...sounds like THall might have his fuel leak sorted and my engine is on its way back to me, so stay tuned to the forum and see how we fare...

miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by energyturtle » Sun May 15, 2016 5:06 am

Here is a thought. Is your distributor drive gear indexed correctly?

Scottie

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Thu May 19, 2016 5:18 am

energyturtle wrote:Here is a thought. Is your distributor drive gear indexed correctly?

Scottie
It's definitely not indexed correctly. Cleaning the friction plate in the dizzy didn't change the necessity for the 32* BTDC timing.
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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by the miz » Thu May 19, 2016 10:05 am

MountainPrana wrote: I need to look at that more carefully because I definitely have some issue with the lifters not letting me adjust them. They just push the valves open so the motor has really low compression.

Tim
...read this again and it jogged my memory:
your set up is most likely Hydraulic, that is Adrian's "go-to" from what I gleaned from our in person conversation in his shop.
Adrian's opinion is: "you should never have to adjust your valves".
I countered: "but what if you have to take the rocker arms off to replace a leaky push rod tube seal?"
He agreed it would need to be done then...but his recommendation was to only tighten 1 turn pas 0 lash, not 1.5 to 2 as is common/Colin wisdom...

Again, I don't mean to muddy the waters with these tidbits of information, but for those of us with HFM engines...who know how difficult it can be to get answers from the builder... maybe they are insightful/helpful???

I am kind of nervous about having to adjust the valves on my newly reinstalled (but as yet to run- due to battery issues) engine...as a valve adjustment is what essentially precipitated the need to return the engine last time.

-miz
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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Thu May 19, 2016 6:15 pm

the miz wrote: ...read this again and it jogged my memory:
your set up is most likely Hydraulic, that is Adrian's "go-to" from what I gleaned from our in person conversation in his shop.
Adrian's opinion is: "you should never have to adjust your valves".
I countered: "but what if you have to take the rocker arms off to replace a leaky push rod tube seal?"
He agreed it would need to be done then...but his recommendation was to only tighten 1 turn pas 0 lash, not 1.5 to 2 as is common/Colin wisdom...
I'm sure that there are hydraulic lifters in my motor, I looked down the pushrod tubes with a flashlight and I could see the circlips that hold the plunger in the lifter body, and it sure looked to me like the sockets were pushed all the way up against the circlips and not being allowed to bleed down or compress. Also one random day 1 of the 8 lifters was actually spongy, you could push the rod in and watch it return. Add that to the fact that the nuts are all showing the same amount of threads on the adjuster bolts and I am intuiting that there is a bleed down issue as opposed to the lifters being compressed all the way.

1 turn, 1.5 turns or 2 doesn't really matter though if the lifter doesn't compress in the slightest it's still going to prevent the valves from seating properly resulting in low, low compression. I wonder what Adrian's logic is in recommending only 1 of preload? as the hydraulic lifter wears against the cam it will need to expand to make up for the wear which with only 1 turn of compression wouldn't last as long as 1.5 or 2 before being fully extended and then eventually meeting the circlip and moving into 0 lash and and even more (assuming one was to not ever adjust the valves).
I mean it has to obey the laws of physics... right? It just makes me curious is all.

In my mind Colin's procedure on Hydraulic Lifter Adjustment says it all. viewtopic.php?t=11408#p199857 Note the drawing showing wear and the rap on problems near the end. I believe I am dealing with #3:
Amskeptic wrote: 3) the lifter is pumped up and refusing to bleed down at all, which it is supposed to do when there is no opening pressure from a cam lobe on it.

Solution 3) This is a PIA, and I have happened across two sets of new lifters that were so stupid they didn't know how to bleed down. Release the locknut. Back out the screw you had just adjusted 1 1/2 (or 2) turns and observe if it is actually the valve retainer coming back out at you. That is proof of a valve that was stuck open because the lifter would not release the oil inside as you were trying to adjust it earlier.
Sad to say, I had to pull all the lifters, release the check balls with a small allen wrench down the middle of the lifter, and readjust. If anyone has had this problem, I'd like to hear from you. PM me.
Colin
I haven't actually removed the lifters to inspect them so this is only a hypothesis currently.
the miz wrote:Again, I don't mean to muddy the waters with these tidbits of information, but for those of us with HFM engines...who know how difficult it can be to get answers from the builder... maybe they are insightful/helpful???
Dude, the water is already pretty muddy! I think the tidbits serve to add more spokes to the wheel broadening perspective and bringing that insight that you mentioned. I totally agree that having the conversation may help myself and others to navigate similar terrain... Muddy away!!!
the miz wrote: am kind of nervous about having to adjust the valves on my newly reinstalled (but as yet to run- due to battery issues) engine...as a valve adjustment is what essentially precipitated the need to return the engine last time.

-miz
If it ain't broke... maintain it...

Tim

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Re: 82 Camper Timing not to spec

Post by MountainPrana » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:42 pm

Finally got the Distributor oriented properly today. I can't believe I was so anxious about it, as it turned out to be such an easy thing to do. I was really hoping that it would solve the issue of the engine needing to be timed at 32* BTDC. Nope... Not sure what to look into next.

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Tim :scratch:

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