Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

Post Reply
User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:16 am

...so, after a "cable tv installer"-type 7 hour wait for the freight company to show up, my new turnkey engine from Adrian at Headflow Massters arrived yesterday evening.
Image
If looks were enough, we'd be good to go :cheers:
BellePlaine, being the awesome guy he is, drove up after work to help me get the engine into the bay. I didn't get as far as I'd have liked to... gave up around 11 when fatigue set in and the mosquitoes finally found me in the garage.
There were a few unexpected elements...the complete California exhaust was a surprise, given I was expecting the scope to stop at Federal heater boxes. I just hope that I can get the heater duct pipes to fit...

To be sure, there are a few things I need to clarify with Adrian, hopefully today.

I still have to get all of the blower and heating duct pipes attached, hook up the fuel line, hook up the throttle cable, get some oil in and maybe one or two other minor things before I'm ready to fire her up and start the break in...hopefully after work today.

There is one thing that the forum might be able to help me with:
I noticed there is no spot to hook up my brake booster line...I'd like to have this!
Anyone out there with dual carbs have a recommendation as to where to splice it in?
Belle Plaine's thought was to "T" it in to these "air balance" lines (?) on the intake part of one of the carbs, anyone have any thoughts?

Here is the balance line I'm referring to:
Image
Image

thanks!
-miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
satchmo
Old School!
Location: Crosby, MN
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by satchmo » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:35 am

On the original dual carb engines, the outlet for the brake booster was a large bore brass sleeve in the intake manifold below the attachment of the carb. These brass sleeves were connected to the brake booster hose by the dreaded rubber brake booster hose elbows which, when torn or leaking, caused valves to burn up. Not the best system if you didn't check the elbows frequently.

I can't tell what hose you are referring to in the photos. Just make sure it combines vacuum from both intake manifolds.

Tim
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:24 am

satchmo wrote:On the original dual carb engines, the outlet for the brake booster was a large bore brass sleeve in the intake manifold below the attachment of the carb. These brass sleeves were connected to the brake booster hose by the dreaded rubber brake booster hose elbows which, when torn or leaking, caused valves to burn up. Not the best system if you didn't check the elbows frequently.

I can't tell what hose you are referring to in the photos. Just make sure it combines vacuum from both intake manifolds.

Tim
Thanks, Tim!
In the following picture...
Image
...do you see (at the bottom) the black rubber hose piece spanning the 2 brass barbs in a "rainbow"? This is the hose I was referring to, it has an analog on the other carb, of course. BellePlaine was recalling this being a point where brake booster had been teed-in on an old dual carb bug that he'd owned...but thought only one side was necessary to tee into. Are you suggesting a tee into both sides, adding a connector/manifold hose that meets the brake booster line?

Thanks again for the help and input!

-miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:35 am

the miz wrote:the black rubber hose piece spanning the 2 brass barbs in a "rainbow"?
Too small, too far up.

The intake manifold branches for #3 and #1 should be drilled for 1/2 nipples, use 1/2" hose. You need to have a one-way valve installed the line that leads to the booster (arrow towards engine)

Do you think Adrian would understand that a Type 4 baywindow bus and a Vanagon both came from the factory with power brakes, and might need to have this crap machined before the damn engine is sent out?
ColinEasyThereFella
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:04 am

Amskeptic wrote:Too small, too far up.
The intake manifold branches for #3 and #1 should be drilled for 1/2 nipples, use 1/2" hose. You need to have a one valve installed the line that leads to the booster (arrow towards engine)
Do you think Adrian would understand that a Type 4 baywindow bus and a Vanagon both came from the factory with power brakes, and might need to have this crap machined before the damn engine is sent out?
Thanks, Colin. I'll look to see if this provision exists, although I am thinking it does not(as I would probably have noticed it). I've been trying to clear this up with Adrian, but he is not answering the phone and his voice mail is not picking up either. I can try to send him an e-mail too, but as the last 3 I sent went unanswered, I suspect this one will meet the same fate.
I do have the booster set up from my old single progressive carb, so I've got everything I'd need...I just don't have a spot to hook it up! (or don't think that I do.)
Is driving this vehicle without the power brakes as bad of an idea as it sounds to be?
If so, and the manifolds need to be machined to add a brake booster, I may strip off the dual IDF 40 carbs and reinstall the old, anemic 32/36DFEV...as I am running out of last-ditch saves to get this thing running (safely) before my vacation. :pale:

miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:25 pm

...just got off the phone with Adrian. He was quite congenial and apologetic for the delay in getting my engine out and to me...found it hard to believe we'd started this process in Febraury...I agree...a lot has happened in the interim.

So, I got some of my questions answered:
Brake booster: he intended for me to tee into the rubber hose lines (shown in the above photo) on both carbs and then to create a manifold to join them to my brake booster line. His thought is that: 4 small holes equal 2 big ones. He feels that tying 4 x 3/8" vacuum lines into the 1/2" brake booster will give me maximum brake boosting power, better than 2 x 1/2" and far superior to 1 x 1/2".
So...now I just have to visit the plumbing department at my local harware shop for some appropriately sized tee pieces...and then back to O'Reilly for some 1/2" vacuum line (?).

...he also answered a few other questions for me, which I won't delve into right now and told me he'd send me the heater box(es) to go back to a Federal set up. Now I have to see if I can get my stuff to jibe with the left side Cali heater box, or strip the old left side heater box to get me on the road sooner.

Other good news: he said the engine is already broken in...he ran it for 2+ hours on the dynamometer. He just wants me to "baby" it for ~300 mi. or so.

I still have my work cut out for me here if I plan to take this vehicle on vacation at the end of the week, but I feel a little better about it, at the moment, at least and it might still be possible... :drunken:

-confidence (at least partially) restored,
miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
satchmo
Old School!
Location: Crosby, MN
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by satchmo » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:24 pm

We can't tell how far down the intakes those nipples are, but they are worth a try since it is all you have. The volume of air movement will be restricted due to the size of the nipples (which are smaller than the hose size and will be the limiting factor), and you will just have to see how much benefit you get at the brake.

The reason the brake booster hose is so large in diameter is that it needs move a large (relatively) volume of air in addition to some level of vacuum.
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

Squeebles
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Squeebles » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:34 pm

the miz wrote:. His thought is that: 4 small holes equal 2 big ones. He feels that tying 4 x 3/8" vacuum lines into the 1/2" brake booster will give me maximum brake boosting power, better than 2 x 1/2" and far superior to 1 x 1/2".

miz
Huh? Am I missing something or are Adrian's physics totally backwards?
1977 VW Bus, 2.0 FI

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:56 pm

Squeebles wrote:
the miz wrote:. His thought is that: 4 small holes equal 2 big ones. He feels that tying 4 x 3/8" vacuum lines into the 1/2" brake booster will give me maximum brake boosting power, better than 2 x 1/2" and far superior to 1 x 1/2".

miz
Huh? Am I missing something or are Adrian's physics totally backwards?
The pure cross-section area of four 3/8" hoses is .05 square inches larger than two 1/2" hoses. However, there is almost twice as much surface area inside the four hoses. So if we need to fill the brake booster quickly, we want to consider volume over time. The extra theoretical volume gained with four hoses might not overcome the extra fluid friction present with so many small hoses. I do not know which would be better, but I bet someone with years of HVAC and engine experience might............ :blackeye:

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

Jivermo
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Jivermo » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:43 pm

Glad to hear that he test ran your engine. What is your engine number, pray tell?

User avatar
wcfvw69
Old School!
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by wcfvw69 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:40 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Squeebles wrote:
the miz wrote:. His thought is that: 4 small holes equal 2 big ones. He feels that tying 4 x 3/8" vacuum lines into the 1/2" brake booster will give me maximum brake boosting power, better than 2 x 1/2" and far superior to 1 x 1/2".

miz
Huh? Am I missing something or are Adrian's physics totally backwards?
The pure cross-section area of four 3/8" hoses is .05 square inches larger than two 1/2" hoses. However, there is almost twice as much surface area inside the four hoses. So if we need to fill the brake booster quickly, we want to consider volume over time. The extra theoretical volume gained with four hoses might not overcome the extra fluid friction present with so many small hoses. I do not know which would be better, but I bet someone with years of HVAC and engine experience might............ :blackeye:

Robbie
Robbie-
Two things-

1) reading that made my head hurt.
2) I hate math!

:)
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:25 pm

the miz wrote: I do have the booster set up from my old single progressive carb, so I've got everything I'd need...I just don't have a spot to hook it up! (or don't think that I do.)
You need two tapped nipples on two intake manifold branches. Did the progressive have two take-offs?
the miz wrote: Is driving this vehicle without the power brakes as bad of an idea as it sounds to be?
Try it. You are the only one who can answer that. You need to be able to develop sufficient force with your foot/leg to lock up the wheels. That is the only criterium.


the miz wrote: If so, and the manifolds need to be machined to add a brake booster, I may strip off the dual IDF 40 carbs
Don't. Let this engine be the recipe that it is for now. You can easily remove the carb/manifold as an assembly and drill holes a couple of inches off the intake manifold flanges. Thread in some nipples. Vacuum and wash and clean and check carefully and use grease on paper gaskets or Permatex Aviation on steel gaskets (doubtful that you'd have these).
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:49 am

Amskeptic wrote: You need two tapped nipples on two intake manifold branches. Did the progressive have two take-offs?
These are in place, placed by Adrian, behind the "rainbow" hose to be teed into. Really, they are as far down the manifold on the carb as you can get before hitting tin. The progressive only had one take off. I went to get some brass tee fittings yesterday as well as some 3/8" and 1/2" hose. My plan is to tee into both "rainbow" hoses on the intakes connect them with a 1/2" line that also has a tee in the middle to then connect that to my plastic brake booster line.
It seems to make sense and is what Adrian recommended...I'm not sure why he didn't just do it in his shop...maybe he didn't have time to run to Home Depot to get the PEX plumbing pieces???
Amskeptic wrote:Try it. You are the only one who can answer that. You need to be able to develop sufficient force with your foot/leg to lock up the wheels. That is the only criterium.
I'm going to try setting up the booster as described this afternoon...it couldn't be worse than no booster at all, right?

Amskeptic wrote:Don't. Let this engine be the recipe that it is for now. You can easily remove the carb/manifold as an assembly and drill holes a couple of inches off the intake manifold flanges. Thread in some nipples. Vacuum and wash and clean and check carefully and use grease on paper gaskets or Permatex Aviation on steel gaskets (doubtful that you'd have these).
Colin
Roger that! I think I have my work cut out for me following Adrian's further explanation...I hope to get Vana running this evening. I'd hoped for last evening but had an unexpected 6 hour ordeal removing the Cali exhaust in its entirety to ultimately reinstall my original Federal exhaust. (fun!)

Thanks for the help!
miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:50 am

Jivermo wrote:Glad to hear that he test ran your engine. What is your engine number, pray tell?
If I remember when I'm back in the bay engine later, I'll jot down the CV code or take a photo to better respond.

-miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:53 am

Squeebles wrote:Huh? Am I missing something or are Adrian's physics totally backwards?
I know, it seems counter intuitive...but it's what the man recommended...and it is the most straight forward option at this point. I plan to try it and reevaluate if it is lacking.

I am no physicist or mechanical engineer...I just play one on TV :sunny:

miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

Post Reply