The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

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kreemoweet
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by kreemoweet » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:53 pm

asiab3 wrote: If I cover the carb with three fingers . . .
See what happens with the air cleaner installed, as the engine was designed to have that on I think.

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asiab3
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:10 pm

kreemoweet wrote:
asiab3 wrote: If I cover the carb with three fingers . . .
See what happens with the air cleaner installed,
Similar result but much less effective.
as the engine was designed to have that on I think.
I think so too :geek:
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:12 am

asiab3 wrote:First oil change was not surprising; it looked cleaner then the descriptions I've read. Nothing magnetic.


I'm having the trickiest time getting it to stay running. If I cover the carb with three fingers it wants to stay alive. Lean, says I. Very Confirmed, says the LM1. I have capped all vacuum ports, replaced carb base gaskets, and I'm out of ideas. What are the possibilities of the heat risers leaking into the intake manifold?

Are there any single-port oddities that I've missed? Potentially in manifold installation?
Are you using the big brass screw idle bypass carburetor? If yes, crank that sucker out. Double check the cut-off solenoid. It can click weakly and fool you into thinking that it actually opened when it didn't.
If still no love, start cranking out the mixture screw and see if it helps. A tight new engine is tough on idle calibrations due to frictional losses, so adjust with abandon.
Colin
(singleport oddity - you need to recheck intake manifold tightness because of those little copper o-ring gaskets. They will make a memory after a few heat/cool cycles. 10mm intake manifold nuts only need about 7 ft/lbs, a good thing seeing as they are difficult to reach in the inside corners.
retorque every single exhaust and intake and heat riser and tin screw on the engine because it is fun)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wcfvw69
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:31 am

I agree with everything Colin said.

If it were me, I'd check in order-

1) carb manifold bolts at the heads. Even if the nuts are tight, get it running and spray the manifold/head area with carb or brake cleaner to double verify no leaks. Ask me how I know.. My dual port bus engine was idling poorly and lumpy. Everything appeared tight. Only when I sprayed the boots and saw the engine idle up did I realize I hadn't slid the boots all the way over in the correct postion on the castings.. DUH!
2) cut-off solenoid. Pull it out and make sure it hasn't come apart (if it's the plunger type). Make sure it's pulling in/out.
3) If your adjustments that Colin suggests don't correct it, I'd yank the carb off, disassemble and blow all the passages and jets out. You possibly have a piece or junk in a idle jet or passage. Did you start/run this w/out an air cleaner for any period of time? My Solex 30 PICT-2 carb LOVED to pick up tiny pieces of dirt and clog a jet/passage and run like you're discribing. Even with an original oil bath. Ironically, I the last time I blew that carb all out, I noticed the oil bath oil lever was low. Since filling it to the correct level, I haven't clogged the carb..

I'd say in all likelyhood, it's one of those things.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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asiab3
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:14 am

Amskeptic wrote: Are you using the big brass screw idle bypass carburetor? A tight new engine is tough on idle calibrations due to frictional losses, so adjust with abandon.
Yes, 30pict3, with two different cutoff solenoids tested identically. I was contemplating frictional losses, and I may have been naive in setting the carb to the standard "three turns out" to start with.

I have it idling now, with the big volume screw WAY out, and the mixture screw fairly rich compared to where I used to set my 34pict3. Like, to get it to idle part of the volume screw is flush with the carb casting, and I've never seen one that far out. It idles fine, and throttle response is fine. Is it true that the engine will "gain" power as the parts seat and get used to their new life? This engine already feels stronger than the last one. :cheers: But I have not given it more than 1/2 throttle, except on the ring break-in where I went up to 3/4ish.

wcfvw69 wrote: 1) carb manifold bolts at the heads.
2) cut-off solenoid.
3) I'd yank the carb off, disassemble and blow all the passages and jets out.
1) I've run the gamut of dual-port vacuum leaks, and the poor quality boot market was one of my main motivations to go single port. Less leak locations, RIGHT? I actually don't think I have a vacuum leak. Compared to where I have it now, my idle mixture was essentially all air yesterday. Wilson says the intake manifolds "for all T1 engines" get 14 ft/lb. Boy is he wrong, and I have a stripped stud to prove it. One of my intake studs is now a bolt with a cleaved-off head. I feel like such a hack now, but at the time it was just doing what I needed to do.
2) This carb uses the one year only "needle type" that doesn't move externally. (Ironically, Jbugs, the biggest purveyor of Crap I've ever known, sells a working reproduction.) I have two used broken valves for disassembly, one new one ready top go, and a good used one in the bus now.
3) I did that with no change. I also did the "hillbilly tune-up" that I routinely have to do after dropping/installing an engine without covering up the carb throat. This is how I discovered the engine ran better with less airflow. I confirmed that the gaskets used are correct, allowing for free passage of air and fuel where necessary through different sections of the carb. When I went to install the carb and fire up the engine for the first time, I realized I didn't have any base gaskets for the smaller carb flange! I had a few dozen for the 34/dual port size carbs. So I made one out of gasket paper and a gasket hole cutter. How many 24-year-olds do you know that can just make a gasket? I know it's small change in the pocket of an experienced mechanic, but my friends are out buying new garbage when they want it. I like making things when I need them. (I bring this up, because I thought maybe the gasket was leaking. Nope.)


Off to get these awful red wires out of my #15 circuit,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

kreemoweet
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by kreemoweet » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:37 pm

asiab3 wrote: Boy is he wrong . . .
Bentley manual also specs 14 ft-lb for both 6 mm and 8 mm intake studs. Can't those guys get anything right?

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:11 pm

kreemoweet wrote:
asiab3 wrote: Boy is he wrong . . .
Bentley manual also specs 14 ft-lb for both 6 mm and 8 mm intake studs. Can't those guys get anything right?
Since I stripped them around 12, I really don't think that the two studs should have the same torque value. There's a big difference between an M8 stud and M6 stud. I'll try to find the Without Guesswork for the single port engines. The other M6 fasteners (oil cap nuts and heat risers,) on the engine are 5 and 7 ft/lbs respectively.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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asiab3
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:24 pm

I've actually got the idle pretty nice right now. Yesterday was just wacky, but then I remembered this carb giving me trouble on the bug too, so I blocked off the hole in the throttle plate,* revved it up and capped off the throat 100% with my hand and let it suck any crap out of the jets. It fought hard to stay alive, but I needed to teach this engine who is in charge. After this, it wanted to idle, and a flagrant adjustment to both the screws got it smoothed out. Removing the butterfly block* gave me a nice idle speed after another adjustment. I adjusted it to my liking by ear and feel, then stuck the LM1 on it to see how I did with a new engine and induction system. 14.6-14.7 at idle by feel. It drives nice a little richer so I'm leaving it there and seeing how it does in the cold tomorrow.

*This was my old trick to get a 34pict3 to behave when it wants a DVDA distributor but one isn't available. This forces more air through the idle circuit and improves throttle response and gives more options in tuning. Of course it's not needed when I have the right distributor and carb combo, but I needed to make sure any and all crap was sucked out of the jets.

I noticed an increase in the valve clearance on most of the valves at first adjustment, and then a few exhaust valves loosened up after the ring break-in. Is this normal? I was expecting clearances to shrink as the parts work their way into their new homes.

Colin, I know you're picky about break-ins, but I'm a little lost looking for info after the ring break-in besides frequent oil changes and valve adjustments. I have not really maintained a cruising speed, instead electing to vary my engine speed through my drives. Do we want a faster than normal idle speed for now? I'm idling about 1000 off the fast-idle cam when warm.

Robbie

PS- I work at a large company with pretty nice coworker socialization. I must have gotten seven or eight high-fives from acquaintances who saw the bus in the lot today for the first time since early January. (And one even pointed out how it doesn't leak!) It took some getting used to trying to remember where I parked, instead of just looking for The Shape. Now I'm back to a sly smile when I can always find my car without thinking.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:04 am

asiab3 wrote: I noticed an increase in the valve clearance on most of the valves at first adjustment, and then a few exhaust valves loosened up after the ring break-in. Is this normal?

I have not really maintained a cruising speed, instead electing to vary my engine speed through my drives. Do we want a faster than normal idle speed for now? I'm idling about 1000 off the fast-idle cam when warm.
Robbie
Means your camshaft lobes are all going flat and the lifter bottoms are grating off and the rocker bushings were starved and are now galled.
Or not.

Naw, just drive it and enjoy it and do not forget to hit 4,000 rpm some time before the cylinder walls are broken in, a nice modest load pull in 2nd gear, you need to stretch the rods a smidge here so the cylinder walls do not have anything like a ridge that shatters rings the first time you really have to pull some rpms.
Remember that this is a Laffer Curve In Reverse. If the first three seconds are critical, the line is way up in the red zone. After three minutes, the line has dived half way to the baseline. At ten minutes, you are leaving the danger zone. At 100 miles, you are just barely above the base line. So drive it. Monitor heat, that is what you want to keep under control during the first 500-1,000 miles or so.

I did a rebuild in 1992, and drove across the country the next morning.
Colin :geek:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:03 am

Amskeptic wrote:
asiab3 wrote: I noticed an increase in the valve clearance on most of the valves at first adjustment, and then a few exhaust valves loosened up after the ring break-in. Is this normal?
Means your camshaft lobes are all going flat and the lifter bottoms are grating off and the rocker bushings were starved and are now galled.
Or not.
This is worrying me now... What metals are the cam/lifters made of? Internet research says iron/steel. I had no magnetic debris picked up from the break in oil. There was a slight dusting on the magnetic drain plug, but less than I used to see with the old engine during normal service life.

There is a slight clak/tick that this engine has that the old one didn't. I'll try to get a recording.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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wcfvw69
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:50 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
asiab3 wrote: I noticed an increase in the valve clearance on most of the valves at first adjustment, and then a few exhaust valves loosened up after the ring break-in. Is this normal?

I have not really maintained a cruising speed, instead electing to vary my engine speed through my drives. Do we want a faster than normal idle speed for now? I'm idling about 1000 off the fast-idle cam when warm.
Robbie
Means your camshaft lobes are all going flat and the lifter bottoms are grating off and the rocker bushings were starved and are now galled.
Or not.
Wow.. Cold.. super cold and cruel... =;

I'm sure he's messing w/you Robbie. :) As anal as you were in assembling that engine, it's going to be fine. I know when I built my two engines, I was "hearing" all sorts of fantom noises in them the first few hundred miles! My 67 bug engine, I swear it had a knocking at 500 miles. A work buddy who's built plenty of engines in his 60 years came out, listened to it and said "stop being paronoid, it sounds perfectly normal".. It's got 8k miles on it now and runs beautifully. Nothing in the oil during changes.

Oh, to Colin's point on him building his engine and road tripping across country the next day. Back in 1983 or 84, I had a guy in Escondido build me a hot 1835 w/dual Kadrons. He was a real known engine builder back then, had his turbo'd 2180 in VW Trends, etc.. I brought the long block home, put it all together, and babied that bug back 7 miles to his shop. He double checked my work, synced the carbs and then pulled it out on the street. I watched in HORROR as he reved my cal-look baby up, dropped the clutch and burned out thru three gears down the street! He pulled back in and said "yea, it'll run 14's for sure".. I asked about breaking the engine in gently. He said, "nah, if there going to break, they'll do it right away".

I never did have any issues with that engine. It had 60k miles on it when I sold the car..
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:58 pm

I sure hope that was messing with me . :)

My neighbor down the street was a dealer Porsche & VW mechanic from 74 until the early '90s. He said it sounds great. I am just paranoid that it doesn't sound like my old engine I guess.

I'm getting REALLY quick at valve adjustments, and pretty good at hitting .006" by feel. Of course I double check every one, but I'm usually right on.

I have a bag of Porsche Genuine Swivel Feet Adjusters sitting here. I want to get them in stat, but I'm enjoying driving so much.......

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:49 am

Update:
Left valves still loose this morning. Right valves fine.
Left rocker shaft mounting blocks on upside down. Right rocker shaft blocks fine.

I seriously don't know how I missed this. I feel like I checked, checked, and double-checked my work around the heads.

I found the TWO exhaust leaks that are giving me the sound that makes me uncomfortable. Should be a fun day pulling the engine on Monday to assess my work, take care of the exhaust, and get my endplay down to .003". It's currently sitting at .005". Should I re-torque the heads since I have the engine out?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:04 am

asiab3 wrote:Update:
Left valves still loose this morning. Right valves fine.
Left rocker shaft mounting blocks on upside down. Right rocker shaft blocks fine.

I seriously don't know how I missed this. I feel like I checked, checked, and double-checked my work around the heads.

I found the TWO exhaust leaks that are giving me the sound that makes me uncomfortable. Should be a fun day pulling the engine on Monday to assess my work, take care of the exhaust, and get my endplay down to .003". It's currently sitting at .005". Should I re-torque the heads since I have the engine out?
Hi Robbie :cherry: :cherry:

I was messing with you, BUT, I was also inflaming your hyper-vigilance. Yes, keep an eye on why your valve clearances on the left opened up. They all really should be a little tight at the first couple of adjustments, then stabilize. You should not have one side of the engine behaving differently from the other as far as valve adjustments. You know the physics of why valve adjustments normally tighten during break-in, the heads migrate closer to the camshaft as they seat on the cylinders and the valves drop into the seats a little bit as develop a working surface, but what causes clearances to open up?

Why were your rocker stands installed upside down? (be very happy that you are not an aircraft mechanic answering to the NTSB investigators as to why that DC-10 plummeted to the ground)

Where exactly are your exhaust leaks, and why do you think they exist?
What was your initial end play (was it .0035"?) and why do you think it opened up? Check the #1 bearing for galling and check the shims for blueing or signs of seizure or little kinks that make the end play seem tight at initial assembly but flatten down after a couple of hours of running.

I would normally say don't worry about the head nut torque, but if you have questions about the engine's behavior, there is no reason NOT to. Do it forensically and try each nut first in the tighten direction to see if any are less than 18 (you have the 8mm studs, right), then do a solid 90* loosen and keep the wrench moving as you approach 18 and keep the pressure on as you arrive at your new 18 and just let it hang there a second. Is the left side looser than the right? That is my current Why AreTheLeftValvesLooser question.

I am enjoying the thought that you might be awash in pride and panic in equal measure.
Colin :cherry:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:57 pm

Amskeptic wrote: a) I was messing with you, BUT, I was also inflaming your hyper-vigilance.
b) …but what causes clearances to open up?
c) exhaust leaks
d) end play
e) head torque
f) …awash in pride and panic in equal measure.
a) Thank you. This is how I find things I missed during assembly. In my panic to rotate the rocker shaft from it's previous position in life, I must have flipped the blocks instead of rotating them with the rocker arms themselves.

b) Cam wear, pushrods collapsing, valve stem wear, adjusting screw wear, rocker wear, or rocker arm wear. Maybe more? I used moly grease on the lifters/cam lobes during assembly, and I think I used too much of it on the lifter sides. When I blew the pushrods out with GumOut yesterday, there was a bit of a chunk then they were free-blowing. I think there was grease blocking oil flow in them. The rocker boxes were oily on the inside, but I think there is better lubrication happing now, (AND THE OIL CAN GET ON THE 3-4 SHAFT, THANK YOU.)

Magnetic drain plug has been non-threatening for three oil changes, and since correctly inverting the rocker blocks, valve adjustments have been normal. I do not think the cam/lifters are in trouble.

c) as I posted in JLT's Type 2 Muffler thread, I tried the one-piece clamps. Never again.

d) Initial end play was .004-.005 over five or six measurements. I had ten shims, and could get .0025 or .0045. I went with the wider one for break in, and knew to keep an eye on it but now I'm ready to hit the smaller target. I think the initial grease on the shims gave me a SLIGHTLY small/false reading. Now that oil has circulated and parts are adjust to their new homes, I want to get on it before anything gets funky.

e) 8mm studs, deep top forward stud on #3. The engine runs so dang well, so I do not question that. I will do my routine valve adjustments and pull the engine again if I decide to recheck the head torque.

f) Driving down the freeway, I am often tempted to yell at careless motorists around me, "YOU CAN CUT ME OFF ALL YOU WANT BUT I BUILT MY OWN ENGINE!"

RobbieSlowLaneButCrankshaftHasMyFingerprintsOnIt
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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