hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

User avatar
chitwnvw
Resident Troublemaker
Location: Chicago.
Status: Offline

hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by chitwnvw » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:14 am

Is there any difference in the length of the solid style pushrods and the ones used with the hydraulic lifters?

Thanks.

User avatar
chitwnvw
Resident Troublemaker
Location: Chicago.
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by chitwnvw » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:46 am

push rods - different material and length

hydraulic: one piece steel, 262mm long (10mm shaft diameter, 70g)
solid: aluminum with steel tips, 271mm long (12mm shaft diameter)
Got that from Ratwell, which doesn't fully explain what I am seeing. I got frustrated with my hydraulic valves and was going to show them by using the solids that I have laying around, but now I have a inch of clearance or so between my valve stems and the adjustment screw...

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:49 am

chitwnvw wrote:
push rods - different material and length

hydraulic: one piece steel, 262mm long (10mm shaft diameter, 70g)
solid: aluminum with steel tips, 271mm long (12mm shaft diameter)
Got that from Ratwell, which doesn't fully explain what I am seeing. I got frustrated with my hydraulic valves and was going to show them by using the solids that I have laying around, but now I have a inch of clearance or so between my valve stems and the adjustment screw...
When you make the decision to "show them", by using solid lifters, you are changing the camshaft, right? Hydraulic camshafts will not work with solid lifters.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
chitwnvw
Resident Troublemaker
Location: Chicago.
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by chitwnvw » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:15 am

I've learned my lesson. I think that the hydraulics need to be bled, they were spongy and causing me fits.

BTW, how did that one IAC member have 7 hydraulics and 1 solid then?

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:55 am

chitwnvw wrote:I've learned my lesson. I think that the hydraulics need to be bled, they were spongy and causing me fits.

BTW, how did that one IAC member have 7 hydraulics and 1 solid then?
Do not listen to those who get upset with spongy lifters and tell you that you have to bleed them or run the engine at .006" briefly, it is all nonsense. Turn your adjusting screws 1 1/2 turns-in from just touching "0" clearance, then drive the car normally for at least 20-30 minutes.

People make so many subtle mistakes at valve adjustment time that they think it is the finicky hydraulic lifters.
Colin

(TrollFromDownBelow swore he had 7 solid lifters and 1 hydraulic , so did I, then one day the engine was all solid. We are still confused)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

TrollFromDownBelow
IAC Addict!
Location: Metro Detroit
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:39 pm

Amskeptic wrote: (TrollFromDownBelow swore he had 7 solid lifters and 1 hydraulic , so did I, then one day the engine was all solid. We are still confused)
Me thinks a troll came in the night and swapped out my hydraulic lifter with a solid. :blackeye: As far as making errors when adjusting valves ... I have noticed with Tripod that if I majorly disrupt the valve train (e.g. take it out to install new pushrod tube seals or what not). It seems to take some time for them to "settle down" once I put them back in ... will have to adjust them once or twice after a few hundred miles before they settle in for the next 3kr
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
::troll2::

User avatar
chitwnvw
Resident Troublemaker
Location: Chicago.
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by chitwnvw » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:51 pm


vdubyah73
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by vdubyah73 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:00 am

guess i got lucky when assembling mine. i submerged my brand new febi lifters in a container of 10w30 oil a few days before assembly, turning them occasionally, and plunging them with a pushrod while still under oil installed them at 1 1/2 turns past 0 lash. get the occasional clatter on start up, usually after an overnight and a hot shutdown from a highway ride, or from being parked for more than a day or two. they pump up in moments.

ya wanna hear a noisey valve train? listen to a hi-po type 1 with an e120 cam, dual valve springs, chromoly pushrods, ratio rockers and straight cut cam gears.
1/20/2013 end of an error
never owned a gun. have fired a few.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:07 am

chitwnvw wrote:I found this to be helpful:

http://www.suburbanengine.com/articles/hydraulicll.htm
I just posted above you, please do NOT listen to this!

from Boston Bob
When trying to adjust the valves on a rebuilt engine, or when working on an engine that has had the heads or rockers off for a few days or when replacing lifters I have recommended the following. Set the valve lash to .006" (i.e. no pre-load). This does two things: first the valves will for sure close all the way when the engine warms up, and, secondly, the piston in the lifter is now traveling it's full range of movement has a much better chance of pumping out any remaining air. Run the engine for a couple of weeks before trying to preload the valves.
What exactly did you find so "helpful" about it? I have the exploded circlips and disassembled lifter guts of idiots who run their hydraulic lifters at .006" for a couple of weeks because they are on some wild goose chase to pump up lifters.

Is it impossible for you to please follow my suggestion THEN get back to us if the damn things don't quiet down, something I have yet to experience in the past eight years?

I can't tell you how irritated I get to see this irresponsible crap promulgated by people who have not tested it in the slightest, but they found it "helpful".
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
chitwnvw
Resident Troublemaker
Location: Chicago.
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by chitwnvw » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:33 am

Haha. I knew you'd react that way.

I reread what you wrote after reading the Bob article, and I don't really know how to explain how I learn, but it did all start to make sense, the best I can offer is that after doing something hands on, over and over, that it begins to make innate sense to me. I had 'understood' solid lifters, now I am getting acquainted with hydraulics.

So no offense, I am putting the lifters and rockers back as we enjoy this fine day and I plan on following your advice.

I will add that I had taken a lifter apart and tried to follow the bentley on putting it back together full of oil, and Bob writing that it was pretty much impossible to do, was a big help.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:10 am

chitwnvw wrote:Haha. I knew you'd react that way.

I reread what you wrote after reading the Bob article, and I don't really know how to explain how I learn, but it did all start to make sense, the best I can offer is that after doing something hands on, over and over, that it begins to make innate sense to me. I had 'understood' solid lifters, now I am getting acquainted with hydraulics.

So no offense, I am putting the lifters and rockers back as we enjoy this fine day and I plan on following your advice.

I will add that I had taken a lifter apart and tried to follow the bentley on putting it back together full of oil, and Bob writing that it was pretty much impossible to do, was a big help.
There is a hole with a check ball in some lifter plungers, if pushed with a 1.5mm allen wrench in a can of oil, you can squeeze-assemble the lifter with your fingers.

The funny thing about all of this "bleeding" is that it has to bleed down if you are going to set the preload! If your lifter is pumped up hard as a rock, and you are trying to turn the screw 1 1/2 turns in, what happens if all you end up doing is to push the stupid valve open? Happens every day. I like to adjust from clicky to "0" to 1 1/2 turns, who cares about pumped up, then go drive it. Haven't had a chronic soft lifter yet.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
aussiewalt
I'm New!
Location: Virginia
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by aussiewalt » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:26 pm

Change to solid lifters in Type 4?
76 Camper with a 80-82 2000 Vanagon CV air cooled factory crate motor.

Colin, You said no solids on a hydro cam. Can you explain further? I got conflicting answers from street engine builders, and drag engine builders before I did it. Worked out VERY sweet... Did God smile on me and avert disaster?
Walter.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:33 pm

aussiewalt wrote:Change to solid lifters in Type 4?
76 Camper with a 80-82 2000 Vanagon CV air cooled factory crate motor.

Colin, You said no solids on a hydro cam. Can you explain further? I got conflicting answers from street engine builders, and drag engine builders before I did it. Worked out VERY sweet... Did God smile on me and avert disaster?
Walter.
Hydraulic camshaft lobes have steeper ramps because the factory engineers knew they did not have to cushion the impact of the lobe slamming into the lifter like the solid ones with .006" of slop.

Like radiation, there is no evidence that you made an error when you start a hydraulic-cammed engine with solid lifters. Y'all stand around, "sounds great" and pretty much forget about it. Then you feel sick a few months later. You drain your oil and notice shiny flakes in the strainer. That would be the lifter bottoms shredding after they wear through the hardening treatment.

Street engine builders and drag engine builders are not likely to know that each lobe in a VW engine works twice as hard as any other engine. They are not likely to tell you that our horizontally-opposed engines have only *four lobes* opening eight valves. You will get accelerated wear of the cam lobes and the lifter bottoms will go from convex to concave in fairly short order. If the engine is already broken in, drive it, there is nothing to be done. If you have good hardening compatibility between the cam and lifters you might do OK. Keep oil clean. Zinc-enhanced may help you. Do not let your clearances get sloppy. If they start opening up on you, where you valves get clackity clackity after only a 1,000 miles after adjustment, well . . . pull the lifter and check the bottoms. If the opposing side's valve also goes clackity, or if your idle goes to hell, check lift. If opposing sides (i.e. Ex # 4 and Ex # 2, or In # 3 and In # 1 lose lift, the camshaft is toast.
Colin
(p.s. welcome to the forum)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
aussiewalt
I'm New!
Location: Virginia
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by aussiewalt » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:53 pm

Thank you for your reply, and for getting a little deep. The more tech. the better for me...
Perhaps I should have been clearer about my situation while writing the first post. I am factory VW tech, worked with a bug shop for 30 years or so, and had my own business for 10 years. The people I asked about this were not just guys who built rat rods, but were professional, well established engine builders. My teachers (from VW), Martin motors (local engine builders), Henry Jackson Racing (600+ cube big blocks run on alcohol, holy-crap fast), Jasper (you know of them? We were installers for them), Hand brothers racing (regional successful privateers), and Terry's VW out of Morrisville PA. Some specialized in VW, all knew them fairly well. No lightweight wanna-bees allowed...
Why did a educated VW man do this to a BRAND NEW factory motor? Firstly, failure after only 2000 miles of the lifters. (This lifter setup stinks, from point 1, and it was done for political reasons rather than improvements. That's why all the dealer boys DESPISED them). Secondly, it was a research project that I wanted real answers to. Not just opinions, and "I saw this once" answers. I wanted dead bang accurate answers from professionals, with data and measurements as proof. And then, after research, I do it and see how it comes out...
I asked you for info because I see your posts, and consider you hyper-smart on the VW. Unfortunately for me, I am looking for answers I don't already know or have overlooked. What you say about the ramps is definitely correct, and in reality would fill 2 pages if fully explained. Thank you for the reinforcement. The bit about the 4 lobes working twice as hard is only half the facts. They do not work twice as hard, they just work different from normal cams. Easy to explain, but again 2 more pages of stuff nobody but me and you would care to read.
My end result so far? It runs like a scalded dog. Idles so smooth you cannot feel it from drivers seat. I anticipate a set of lifters in 10000 more miles. They look fine now, just wearing smooth and even. No noise. Many, many comments and compliments from VW people on how good it came out, and how well it runs.
All in all, I would say that after an hour of instructions and directions, do it. Get rid of those Horrible, wrong application, Garbage hydros, and update (backwards) to a set of solids...
Thank you again. Sharing and learning is always appreciated, Walt.
Most of what I think or say comes from dealer/factory school in the 1970's. Always use 40 year old information with adult supervision. Void where prohibited by law. Ask your parents for permission... ;-] Walt.
The ILM - 1976 camper, new 81? Vanagon motor. 120K with 20K on motor...

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: hydraulic lifters...pushrods...

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:03 pm

aussiewalt wrote: The bit about the 4 lobes working twice as hard is only half the facts. They do not work twice as hard, they just work different from normal cams. Easy to explain,
Walt.
Go fer it. Right here. I am writing a book. I always tell my ego that I like learning new things more than remembering old things.

I await your reply with one question:
If a cam lobe is pushing a lifter open on one side of the engine, then goes over to the other side to open another lifter, how is that not "twice as much" as a typical engine?

The Type 4 engine was engineered to reduce this fiercesome wear environment by offsetting the lifters from each other, and what we all got to enjoy as a result was the unique Type 4 cam wear profile. Are you familiar with it?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Post Reply