The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

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asiab3
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:45 pm

Alrighty then, where to begin? I'll adress the issues in order of how I tackled them.

Cooling:
The overheating issue reared its head once from an incorrect sender isntall. Then again a few months ago. I took the engine down the the longblock, and did everything short of pulling the heads. What scared me most, was Colin and my inability to make the temperatures on the gauge fluctuate. We ran pig-rich and blast-furnace-lean, and hit 430* on the same stretch of road every time. The cooling system appeared fine, as we cooled greatly off throttle and down hill.

For kicks, I installed and removed my #3 spark plugs a few times by hand to watch itseat in the head. With and without the sender ring felt very different. Colin will remember the grooves cut in my Brazillian heads, and I am definitely blaming them for a majority of my troubles. First, the grooves catch the sender wire and push/pull the sender ring out of round with the plug. This messes with the sealing ability of the crush washer. Second, the plug wells are MUCH deeper than the German heads I just bought for my new engine. The crimp in the sender is completely unable to simultaneously fit in the well with the spark plug socket. This causes the sender crimp to hang up on the well and pull the sender into an eliptical shape. Colin saw this on my old sender and sighed a mighty sigh. IF YOU ARE LUCKY you can get the crimp caught in the only groove large enough for it while not letting it pull out of round and catch the plug threads. Every time Colin or I tried to torque the #3 plug down with the sender, we were met with a crunching feel. This was either the plug threads catching the sender and/or the sender ring crimp catching the edge of the well and stretching the copper. There is NO WAY to reliably do this with the engine in- I got lucky once, that's all. My long-term-for-now solution was to hacksaw an old NGK plug into a plug for the hole, and Dremel out a nice channel for the ring sender to ride in. Now it can clear the socket, seal the plug, and not get caught and pulled ont he threads. Installed smooth - ahhhhhhh - much better.

Image

Floored up the Newhall Pass, Sepulvida Pass, and my original 430* grade and the highest temp I saw was 404*. Railroad Avenue floor-sessions top out around 370*, AND I made it to San Diego without seeing the gauge flash. Much better than the 380* second gear residential street cruise temps.

While pulling the cooling system apart, I found a wonderful placebo that made me feel good about tearing into the enginel.

Image

McDonald's BBQ sauce packet. Whatever they make that out of, we should look into it for fireproofing. As I said before, my heads don't have the locating dowel, so I made sure to get the metal gasket on the heads straight. Got my Awesome Powdercoat thermostat isntalled, and warm up is quicker. It's probably needing adjsutment, but I feel better about my relatively short morning commute now.

Engine balance issue:
NOBODY in the LA area would take my money for flywheel balancing. Drove around the city for four hours talking to 23 machine shops and they just didn't want to try it. I gave many middle fingers, several thank-yous, and wound up with a flawless used German case, single port heads, and NOS 69mm crank all for $700. So the day wasn't a total loss, but I did get my pressure plate back on the flywheel at home all frustrated. I took a break, looked at my pressure plate, and went WOAH THERE'S THE PROBLEM.

Colin taught me to focus. Don't let the wrench slip. Think about what forces are at play here. Looking at my pressure plate, I could visualize gravity working against me during installation. The Sachs Brazil pressure plate mounting holes are so big, that by putting six bolts through the plate holes into the flywheel, the pressure plate was allowed to sag downwards. A lot. The pressure plate was then resting against the bottom flange/lip of the flywheel, while the top of the plate was at least 3mm from the flange. I immediately loosened my pressure plate bolts and started over, this time propping the pressure plate up while doing half-turns of each hex bolt until the plate held itself up. I used my micrometer to measure equal spacing around the pressure plate to ensure it was centered. It sure was different than EVERY OTHER TIME I've installed the plate. Took three times as long. So six minutes instead of two.

Absolutely worth it. Spending zero dollars, and a lazy afternoon, I cured a great deal of the vibrations from my bus. I can't double-clutch downshift NEARLY as well, because I can't feel the engine beating through the chassis. I suppose I should get a tach now… I can converse with friends and family at a normal voice level, and my dog even fell asleep on a test ride for the first time in history. There is some happy air in Buddy's garage right now, and a great deal of happy feelings cruising around town listening to all the sounds around me that I couldn't hear before. I don't worry about tinnitus consuming me at age 35 either.

This alone was worth the engine pull and all-nighters. :cheers:


Ball Joints:
Bus-Boys sent me 70-79 arms, even though I paid for 68-69 with rush shipping. So they're rushing me correct arms. I can't imagine they made much money on this ordeal, since they have to pay return shipping and rush-ship to cover the mistake. Now I just have to get the cajones to install the new arms. It's my only car right now, so I'll wait for the weekend in case it takes me all day.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:00 am

asiab3 wrote:Alrighty then, where to begin?

My solution was to Dremel a channel for the ring sender.

Floored up the Newhall Pass, Sepulveda Pass, and my original 430* grade
the highest temp I saw was 404*.
Railroad Avenue floor-sessions top out around 370*,
made it to San Diego without seeing the gauge flash.

Engine balance issue:
The Sachs Brazil pressure plate mounting holes are so big, that by putting six bolts through the plate holes into the flywheel, the pressure plate was allowed to sag downwards. A lot.
I loosened my pressure plate bolts used my micrometer to measure equal spacing around the pressure plate to ensure it was centered. It sure was different than EVERY OTHER TIME I've installed the plate. Took three times as long. So six minutes instead of two.

Absolutely worth it. Spending zero dollars, and a lazy afternoon, I cured a great deal of the vibrations from my bus. I can't double-clutch downshift NEARLY as well, because I can't feel the engine beating through the chassis. I suppose I should get a tach now… I can converse with friends and family at a normal voice level, and my dog even fell asleep on a test ride for the first time in history. There is some happy air in Buddy's garage right now, and a great deal of happy feelings cruising around town listening to all the sounds around me that I couldn't hear before. I don't worry about tinnitus consuming me at age 35 either.

This alone was worth the engine pull and all-nighters. :cheers:
Excellent work!
asiab3 wrote: Ball Joints:
Bus-Boys sent me 70-79 arms, even though I paid for 68-69 with rush shipping. So they're rushing me correct arms. I can't imagine they made much money on this ordeal, since they have to pay return shipping and rush-ship to cover the mistake. Now I just have to get the cajones to install the new arms. It's my only car right now, so I'll wait for the weekend in case it takes me all day.
It'll be fun. You will have the unforgettable image of seeing your actual torsion leaves sitting there, and you will marvel that they even work as a springing medium.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Lanval » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:38 pm

asiab3 wrote:What scared me most, was Colin and my inability to make the temperatures on the gauge fluctuate. We ran pig-rich and blast-furnace-lean, and hit 430* on the same stretch of road every time. The cooling system appeared fine, as we cooled greatly off throttle and down hill.

I should've caught this ~ I do a lot of this sort of systemic analysis. In short, if you're changing input variables, but there is no change in output, then the information is suspect. What you guys did should have had some impact, for better or worse. The fact that it didn't ought to have had us all looking at the sender info with skeptical eyes. Particularly given the original too-quick change not accompanied by some other issue.

Nice work.

ML

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:03 pm

Lanval wrote:
asiab3 wrote:What scared me most, was Colin and my inability to make the temperatures on the gauge fluctuate. We ran pig-rich and blast-furnace-lean, and hit 430* on the same stretch of road every time. The cooling system appeared fine, as we cooled greatly off throttle and down hill.

I should've caught this ~ I do a lot of this sort of systemic analysis. In short, if you're changing input variables, but there is no change in output, then the information is suspect. What you guys did should have had some impact, for better or worse. The fact that it didn't ought to have had us all looking at the sender info with skeptical eyes. Particularly given the original too-quick change not accompanied by some other issue.

Nice work.

ML
We had a discussion regarding "acute onset" vs "chronic onset", believe me. I was looking for an acute cause because it would be likely repairable during my visit. "Chronic onset" is how Chloe's skyrocketing temps arrived via receding valves. The fact that asia3b's valve adjustments were stable was what is known in my cranium as a "confounding !*@#! variable."

Kudos to his perseverence and reporting back for the edification of us all.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:32 pm

Going to pick up my case, heads, and crank on Monday.

- My current flywheel does NOT have provisions for an o-ring, nor does it have a VW logo stamped into it. Is it an aftermarket flywheel? I'd like to get a proper VW one for the new engine- worth it?

- When you buy a set of connecting rods from a vendor like aircooled.net or [who else?], do they come semi-matched or balanced?

- How do I know what a "stock" camshaft is if I can't find a NOS 1600 one? I don't want X-TREME POWER just a reliable and efficient Volkswagen bus.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:31 am

asiab3 wrote:Going to pick up my case, heads, and crank on Monday.

- My current flywheel does NOT have provisions for an o-ring, nor does it have a VW logo stamped into it. Is it an aftermarket flywheel? I'd like to get a proper VW one for the new engine- worth it?
A stock (German-forged) flywheel is critical for a bus. I think it needs to be 12 pounds or something. It is the stored inertia in the flywheel that allows you to take off easily.
asiab3 wrote: - When you buy a set of connecting rods from a vendor like aircooled.net or [who else?], do they come semi-matched or balanced?
As our good friend Ronnie Reagan said, "trust but verify." You want the rods to be the same, to be balanced both in total weight and end-to-end. I used a crazy-ass bunch of tools and junk to get the rods to balance precisely on the lower ends as fulcrums so I could use a gram scale to match the weights of the upper ends. If you have a heavy upper end and need to remove material, that makes the total weight drop. Then you have to remove material from all the other rods to keep the total weight the same. If you have to remove material, this is a great opportunity to smooth rough edges, which will make the rod stronger. You remove from the upper and lower ends proportionately as necessary to keep total and end-to-end weights within a gram. I used a gram scale that was often used to measure . . . other gram quantities . . . :weedman:
asiab3 wrote: - How do I know what a "stock" camshaft is if I can't find a NOS 1600 one? I don't want X-TREME POWER just a reliable and efficient Volkswagen bus.

AIRCOOLED.NET
Stock Camshaft with Gear, Std Pitch, Flat (to 1971' Type 1 Based Engines), 113-109-021D is a high quality camshaft for your stock engine rebuild. Be sure to get a compatible oil pump, and lifters, to ensure a long and reliable engine life.
This cam fits the 1200, 1300, 1500, and 1600 based engines, for all Type 1 and Type 2s with upright engines, and for Type 3s.

Cam comes with the cam gear already installed (Riveted) onto the cam, so installation is a breeze!

Price: $74.95
In bold above, I have illuminated typical marketing bullshit because you in fact will want to carefully check the crank gear-to-cam gear mesh. There is no "breeze" if you give a damn about correct mesh. If you have a decent current mesh, you would use your cam gear on the new camshaft. That would require top drawer drilling out of old rivets and a deadnuts-no-run-out installation of your gear on the new camshaft (which wants matching lifters no bullshit here either).
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:36 pm

I've been reading Wilson so much; every time I answer a question I end up with more questions.

Is Permatex Aviation the way to go for case sealent? White grease for assembly lube or black moly grease?

What tools will I need specialized to the task? Ring compressor, micrometer & dials, what else?

Wilson mentiones cam mesh to be a loose zero all the way to .050". This made me think that mesh wasn't a big deal- is there a tighter spec we want? My parts supplier/co-inspector Jim was trained at the VW school in the early seventies, and he has been SO helpful in helping me choose parts- identifying the differences in case & head characteristics. He does run a shop, so I feel guilty when we spent three hours just talking about engine building theory and he is missing out on work. (Side note, Jim was the expert witness in the lawsuits that got GEX removed from the state of California. He had to tear down multiple GEX engines in front of a judge and point out all the flaws. He still has some of the failures on display in his shop - so many issues.)
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:36 am

asiab3 wrote:I've been reading Wilson so much; every time I answer a question I end up with more questions.

Is Permatex Aviation the way to go for case sealant? White grease for assembly lube or black moly grease?

What tools will I need specialized to the task? Ring compressor, micrometer & dials, what else?

Wilson mentiones cam mesh to be a loose zero all the way to .050". This made me think that mesh wasn't a big deal- is there a tighter spec we want? My parts supplier/co-inspector Jim was trained at the VW school in the early seventies, and he has been SO helpful in helping me choose parts- identifying the differences in case & head characteristics. He does run a shop, so I feel guilty when we spent three hours just talking about engine building theory and he is missing out on work. (Side note, Jim was the expert witness in the lawsuits that got GEX removed from the state of California. He had to tear down multiple GEX engines in front of a judge and point out all the flaws. He still has some of the failures on display in his shop - so many issues.)
I don't have time to get into it, but I am the posterchild for correct mesh.
No discernible slop.
No "walking out of the case".
Those are the parameters for cam mesh.
Colin :shaking2:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:16 am

:salute:

Off to pick up my 38a generator and CAST pulley today.

Edit: just had a run up and down Railroad Ave:

323* and 356*, sixty mph.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:14 am

If we don't mind, I'm going to use this space as a "post it" for parts I'm acquiring. I often browse from a phone or work/public computer and need a place to bookmark things. I know we're all busy on here, but if anyone sees ANY issues with these parts, please let me know.

Robbie

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1663396
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1608883

And I'm picking up NOS VW rods tomorrow. I should have the crank/rods/flywheel all out to get dynamically balanced by the end of the month!
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:42 am

asiab3 wrote:If we don't mind, I'm going to use this space as a "post it" for parts I'm acquiring. I often browse from a phone or work/public computer and need a place to bookmark things. I know we're all busy on here, but if anyone sees ANY issues with these parts, please let me know.

Robbie

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1663396
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1608883

And I'm picking up NOS VW rods tomorrow. I should have the crank/rods/flywheel all out to get dynamically balanced by the end of the month!
If that guy has another set of 1600 pistons/cylinders, grab a set for me?

If that other guy has a set of "nos" VW rods, get a set for me?

Please, please?
Thank-you, thank-you,
ColinPayPalPoised
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:53 am

"NOS" rods turned out to be new VW of Mexico, and sold out. :scratch: Also my apartment caught on fire so that's probably going to set me back a bit.

I bought the Kolbenschmidt set, spoke to him on the phone for a while but he couldn't recall any other 1600 parts. He mostly hangs on to 36 & 40 horse stuff. Want Chloe to be even slower?

I'm going to have to start eating Top Ramen sooner than I thought if thi$ continues.

But it will be worth it.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:09 pm

asiab3 wrote:Also my apartment caught on fire so that's probably going to set me back a bit.

Want Chloe to be even slower?
Well, Chloe at 1600cc certainly is a faster domicile than your smoldering apartment. :cherry:
I thought it was VWs that have to look out for fires . . . :angryfire:

Colin
(any details on what the heck caused it?)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:59 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
asiab3 wrote:Also my apartment caught on fire so that's probably going to set me back a bit.

Want Chloe to be even slower?
Well, Chloe at 1600cc certainly is a faster domicile than your smoldering apartment. :cherry:
I thought it was VWs that have to look out for fires . . . :angryfire:

Colin
(any details on what the heck caused it?)
Preliminary investigations are 100% positive it came from the dishwasher. Yes it looks like the point of origin, but all the electrical components look fine to me. But then again I'm not a qualified judge. "Prolly that there braided dishwasher line not standing up to the ethanol soaps."

I just read a Samba thread about someone who used 5/16" and 1/4" fuel hose on his '71 bus and it burned up. He's trying to blame the vapor system....

My current domicile is now air-cooled. I recently wondered why my milage was so dismal, then I realized I was flooring it up all the grades and not hitting 400*. So 16mpg was pretty good for a residence, but I still had my timing at 24* from our tests.... Back to 28*, with quiet and tight suspension, this thrasy but cool motor gave me a 26 MPG fill up this week since traffic on the 405 held us at 40-45mph for almost a hundred miles. Temps hit 408* floored up the Newhall Pass so sue me :thumbleft:
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:20 pm

asiab3 wrote: My current domicile is now air-cooled.
16mpg was pretty good for a residence,
Back to 28*, Temps hit 408* floored up the Newhall Pass
You appear to be at the nice homeostasis point that makes Chloe a joy to drive . . . at 57 mph.

Now the BobD, today, we blasted 70-75* on Interstate 5 in northern California on the level or downhills, 399-410* CHTs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15.7 mpg.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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