Looking for new tires

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whc03grady
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Location: Livingston Montana
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Re: Looking for new tires

Post by whc03grady » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:09 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

I don't know, I hate finding tires.
What's the deal with these anyway? Obviously we've got an alignment issue but are these likely to fly apart on me in the next 3000 miles?
Image

Image

Both pictures are of the front pass. tire, looking toward the back of the vehicle. Right is inner. Wear on the front driver's is similar, if not identical.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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SlowLane
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Re: Looking for new tires

Post by SlowLane » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:30 pm

Wow. That's pretty extreme wear. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest tht you've probably got worn-out ball joints. That should really be addressed before you get new tires, because they'll just wear as fast. But get a professional's opinion: maybe it's just waaaay out of alignment.

If your rear tires have more even tread wear, you might try swapping them front-to-back, but then you'll just end up wearing them out as well, then you'll have four bad tires.

Good luck
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom."
- Terry Pratchett

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Amskeptic
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Re: Looking for new tires

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:04 pm

whc03grady wrote: Both pictures are of the front pass. tire, looking toward the back of the vehicle. Right is inner. Wear on the front driver's is similar, if not identical.
That is a ten minute fix with a big 1 1/8" box wrench and a little pair of needlenose vise grips.

Jack up front end.
Just below each upper ball joint is the adjusting eccentric. Look along their flats (they're like very skinny nuts) that are facing the front bumper and you will see a little peened notch. Make a scratch on each steering knuckle exactly under the notches.
Loosen upper ball joint nuts about a half to a full turn.
Drop car down hard.
Jack it up again. Turn the steering to the side you are working on. Let the steering lock hold the wheels in the position, or have your live-in help hold the wheel. :flower:

With the excessive negative camber you appear to have, you want to rotate the eccentrics both of them OUTWARDS about an eighth of an inch each (be ready to do another eighth inch OUTWARDS again in a couple of hundred miles).
Hold them in place while you tighten the ball joint nuts to 94 ft/lbs.
Drive on dirt to get a nice powder on the tires. Drive another 300 feet on asphalt. LOOK at the pavement cleaned tires and compare the pavement contact area to the tread. You want the outside tread blocks to show more contact now. After a couple of hundred miles do the dirt-then-pavement read again. Your camber is correct when both shoulders of the tires show an equal contact pattern. The current tires should show little contact on the inside shoulder immediately after your camber adjustment.
Repeat to yourself "last step is to tighten ball joint nuts holding the eccentrics with the vise grips." Make sure your scratch marks are easily visible and that you keep a log of adjustment movement.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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whc03grady
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Re: Looking for new tires

Post by whc03grady » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:10 pm

Okay, I'm trying to get this straight before I go and screw something up royally....
Amskeptic wrote:
That is a ten minute fix with a big 1 1/8" box wrench and a little pair of needlenose vise grips.

Jack up front end.
Just below each upper ball joint is the adjusting eccentric. Look along their flats (they're like very skinny nuts) that are facing the front bumper and you will see a little peened notch. Make a scratch on each steering knuckle exactly under the notches.
Loosen upper ball joint nuts about a half to a full turn.
Loosen both ps and dr sides at once?
Amskeptic wrote: Drop car down hard.
How hard?
Amskeptic wrote:Jack it up again. Turn the steering to the side you are working on.
The work I'm doing is the rotating of the eccentrics, mentioned below, no?
Amskeptic wrote:With the excessive negative camber you appear to have, you want to rotate the eccentrics both of them OUTWARDS about an eighth of an inch each
So this is a symmetrical operation, as in, looking at the car from below with its front at 'top', the pass. side adjuster goes CCW and the drivers side goes CW?
Amskeptic wrote:(be ready to do another eighth inch OUTWARDS again in a couple of hundred miles).
Starting with the jacking and the marking and loosening and the dropping?
Amskeptic wrote:Hold them in place while you tighten the ball joint nuts to 94 ft/lbs.

Drive on dirt to get a nice powder on the tires. Drive another 300 feet on asphalt. LOOK at the pavement cleaned tires and compare the pavement contact area to the tread. You want the outside tread blocks to show more contact now. After a couple of hundred miles do the dirt-then-pavement read again. Your camber is correct when both shoulders of the tires show an equal contact pattern. The current tires should show little contact on the inside shoulder immediately after your camber adjustment.
Repeat to yourself "last step is to tighten ball joint nuts holding the eccentrics with the vise grips." Make sure your scratch marks are easily visible and that you keep a log of adjustment movement.
Colin
Is it the case that whatever is done to one side, like say, rotating the eccentric 1/8", must be mirrored exactly on the other side?
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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whc03grady
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Re: Looking for new tires

Post by whc03grady » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:34 pm

My poor planning is showing.

Eleven days from now we're set to embark on a 16-day, 2400-mile trip. We have another car available if the bus isn't ready but extended camping trips are 3x10^6 times easier in the Camper than the car.

I'm nervous about doing this procedure to the front end and in doing so f'ing something up to the point of undriveability, or (worse, perhaps) f'ing something up only to have it manifest itself halfway between Nowhere Montana and Godforsaken Wyoming. As it stands the bus is driveable, not showing signs of things getting worse (i.e., it feels the same as it always has). Obviously, it eats tires.

I'm thinking I'll put two new tires on the back, pitch these current fronts, and put the current rears (which look fine) up front where they can get 2400 miles of excessive negative camber worn into them. Once the trip's over, I'll perform the fix outlined and then get two new tires for a matching set all 'round.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Amskeptic
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Re: Looking for new tires

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:30 am

whc03grady wrote:My poor planning is showing.

Eleven days from now we're set to embark on a 16-day, 2400-mile trip. We have another car available if the bus isn't ready but extended camping trips are 3x10^6 times easier in the Camper than the car.

I'm nervous about doing this procedure to the front end and in doing so f'ing something up to the point of undriveability, or (worse, perhaps) f'ing something up only to have it manifest itself halfway between Nowhere Montana and Godforsaken Wyoming. As it stands the bus is driveable, not showing signs of things getting worse (i.e., it feels the same as it always has). Obviously, it eats tires.

I'm thinking I'll put two new tires on the back, pitch these current fronts, and put the current rears (which look fine) up front where they can get 2400 miles of excessive negative camber worn into them. Once the trip's over, I'll perform the fix outlined and then get two new tires for a matching set all 'round.
Really.
It is easy. Your camber is atrocious.

Looking down at the car like a bird at the front bumper, you rotate the passenger side eccentric CLOCKWISE. That makes the notch (which faces forward) move OUTWARD. Correspondingly, the driver's side eccentric rotates COUNTERclockwise to move its notch outwards.

They do not have to be all symmetrically magnificent. If only one tire showed this wear, you would only do one side.

Image

The notch is just under the green stripe. You move each eccentric 1/8" outwards. See what happens.
Always tighten the nuts back to 94 ft/lbs.
You could take it to any alignment shop if you want. Instruct them as to how VW adjusts the camber. You want 1/2* positive camber split between the two sides. Costs as much as one tire.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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