1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

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ruckman101
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1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:40 pm

Drum brakes. Much of my confusion was cleared up when I realized the micrometer do-hickey thingy bobber I was using was actually giving me measurements in inches, not mm, but notwithstanding, what I have in hand conflicts with what I'm reading in my Bentley.

Specifically, Bentley suggests the width of the new brake linings should be 1.770" (I measured 1.776") for all four wheels, yet the shoes I have for replacing in the front, and the shoes currently on there seem to be 2.165" (2.118"), for 1971 and later models. These have been on there six years now.

The Bentley wear limit for the lining thickness is .100", which still leaves plenty of lining. The retaining bolts were certainly adjusted out quite far, almost 3/4". Could a scant .100 inch wear really move those bolts out of the stars that far?

The linings on the shoes on there seem pretty healthy by my measurements. The leading shoe lining measured .172" at the piston end, and .159" at the adjusting star end, while the trailing shoe measured .180" at the piston, and .153" at the star. The numbers would suggest I'm good to go a spell, so why are the adjusting bolts so far out? And why would the shoes wear more at the static star adjuster end rather than the actively pressing piston end?

Perhaps my drums have been turned at some point and I need oversized shoes with thicker lining. I'm at a loss to measure the diameter, because I have no instrument that will work.

I also have a new spring kit, but the ones on there sure have plenty of tension. Should I shim the adjusting star out with a washer under it and button everything back up? Saving my new springs and shoes for four years down the road?


Thoughts are appreciated. I think I'll make some flour tortillas now.



neal
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ruckman101
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Some photos.

Image

Image

And then I noticed the driver's side tie rod seems to be bent. Probably been like that for years. Should I be concerned?

Image


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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by hambone » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:10 pm

I never measure brake shoes, just eyeball 'em. "eh good enuff" as I drive off a cliff...
If your steering is OK then I'd ignore the bend.
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RSorak 71Westy
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:42 am

No help on the brake question.

If it was aligned since the bend, no problem the toe in is fine. If it was bent after the last alignment the drivers tire is probably toed in too much.
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ruckman101
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:42 am

It has been aligned with a bent rod, leading me to think that if it were an issue the alignment folks would have brought it to my attention. I think I'm going to clean it up, break the glazing with the cross-hatching action, and save my new shoes and springs.


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Amskeptic
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:59 am

ruckman101 wrote: Drum brakes.
Bentley suggests the width of the new brake linings should be 1.770" (I measured 1.776") for all four wheels, yet the shoes I have for replacing in the front, and the shoes currently on there seem to be 2.165" (2.118"), for 1971 and later models. These have been on there six years now.
For 1970:
New linings should be 5.5mm thick.
The 1.776" (45mm) shoes are rears.
The 2.165" (55mm) are front shoes.

I do not know the model year when rear shoes for drum-all-around buses went to 45mm from the prior 40mm, and the fronts went to 55mm from the prior 50mm.
There are no 1971 and later model front shoes.

The configuration of the shoes should be specifically obvious, the front shoes have no need for emergencyt brake crossbars or lever pivots, just a couple of holes for the springs and retainers.
ruckman101 wrote: so why are the adjusting bolts so far out? And why would the shoes wear more at the static star adjuster end rather than the actively pressing piston end?
If you have verifiably correct shoes for the front/rear, then yes, turned drums are a likely culprit.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:45 pm

Noticed the spindle has a big groove worn on the underside where the inner bearing seats. Almost entirely around the bottom half. I can feel a lip on both sides. This can't be good. Seems like that means only one half of the bearing is carrying the load. Outer bearing seat area seems ok.
I guess that means they were a touch loose?

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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:19 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Noticed the spindle has a big groove worn on the underside where the inner bearing seats. Almost entirely around the bottom half. I can feel a lip on both sides. This can't be good. Seems like that means only one half of the bearing is carrying the load. Outer bearing seat area seems ok.
I guess that means they were a touch loose?

neal
Most usually, running damaged bearings will exacerbate the tendency of the inner race to rotate. The load carrying ability of the spindle has not changed, it always took the load exactly where you see the wear. I don't know that looseness causes this kind of wear so much as little flat spots on the roller, or debris locking the rollers and making the race rotate with the bearing cage.
New spindle time!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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ruckman101
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:05 pm

Well, tracked down some replacement spindles, used. Called the usual suspects. Halsey's drew blank stares. Nope. Same with Discount. Nope. Apparently nothing new available. Ashley at Always is hopefully just on vacation, closed until the 22nd. Trafton, well, no phone, fax, so confused. Late Friday isn't the best time to be trying to round up this sort of thing. Called Avery's in Woodland, but hadn't heard back, so stopped in at the VW place I still don't know the name of on 99 in Hazel Dell to pick up a set of front wheel outer bearings, which they didn't have, nor spindles.

Once I got up on the mountain, I got the message from Avery's that they did indeed have a set of spindles. Still a bit unsure on the price. Emailed them and hope to pick them up tomorrow afternoon.

Now that I'm facing the task of replacing my spindles, I wish I had paid more attention to the process while distracting Colin and Sluggo from that very task a month ago.

Time and schedules are always the dictators. Since Gretchen's transmission slid into a non-functioning mode, we're down to Bertha for our driver, and next week is a work week for Cheryle, and thus, Bertha will be driving and working rather than being wrenched upon.

Which is unfortunate. I don't like to be rushed. I have yet to get the brakes done. While the shoes on the front driver's side measured to be but 60 percent down, not as reassuring on the passenger side on inspection, and more spindle wear, not as bad, but there.

So next week, Bertha is back to work, giving me two, maybe three days of wrenching opportunity before we head to Seattle for hopefully, after initial obligations met, taking the week to traverse the peninsula, camping and visiting small town libraries in an effort to increase circulation of Cheryle's book "Vanishing Logger" (http://www.runchica.com/logger/).

I want to believe that replacing the spindles should be delayed, broaching a relatively unknown task in such a tight time frame with a deadline concerns me, based on unknowns, so the plan is tune-up oil change tomorrow, hopefully rear brakes, next wrenching window front brakes. But maybe I shouldn't bother, and do it all in one fell sweep. It seems a lot of effort to go through to go through it all again when I tear into replacing the spindles. All that heavy grease.

Currently, the front wheels are running what grease was there plus some additional. Those grooves in the spindles didn't happen in a week.

If my logic is flawed, and there are concerns I've missed, let me know.



neal
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Amskeptic
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:25 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Well, tracked down some replacement spindles, used. Called the usual suspects. Halsey's drew blank stares. Nope. Same with Discount. Nope. Apparently nothing new available. Ashley at Always is hopefully just on vacation, closed until the 22nd. Trafton, well, no phone, fax, so confused. Late Friday isn't the best time to be trying to round up this sort of thing. Called Avery's in Woodland, but hadn't heard back, so stopped in at the VW place I still don't know the name of on 99 in Hazel Dell to pick up a set of front wheel outer bearings, which they didn't have, nor spindles.

Once I got up on the mountain, I got the message from Avery's that they did indeed have a set of spindles. Still a bit unsure on the price. Emailed them and hope to pick them up tomorrow afternoon.

Now that I'm facing the task of replacing my spindles, I wish I had paid more attention to the process while distracting Colin and Sluggo from that very task a month ago.

Time and schedules are always the dictators. Since Gretchen's transmission slid into a non-functioning mode, we're down to Bertha for our driver, and next week is a work week for Cheryle, and thus, Bertha will be driving and working rather than being wrenched upon.

Which is unfortunate. I don't like to be rushed. I have yet to get the brakes done. While the shoes on the front driver's side measured to be but 60 percent down, not as reassuring on the passenger side on inspection, and more spindle wear, not as bad, but there.

So next week, Bertha is back to work, giving me two, maybe three days of wrenching opportunity before we head to Seattle for hopefully, after initial obligations met, taking the week to traverse the peninsula, camping and visiting small town libraries in an effort to increase circulation of Cheryle's book "Vanishing Logger" (http://www.runchica.com/logger/).

I want to believe that replacing the spindles should be delayed, broaching a relatively unknown task in such a tight time frame with a deadline concerns me, based on unknowns, so the plan is tune-up oil change tomorrow, hopefully rear brakes, next wrenching window front brakes. But maybe I shouldn't bother, and do it all in one fell sweep. It seems a lot of effort to go through to go through it all again when I tear into replacing the spindles. All that heavy grease.

Currently, the front wheels are running what grease was there plus some additional. Those grooves in the spindles didn't happen in a week.

If my logic is flawed, and there are concerns I've missed, let me know.
neal
VWs can be very forgiving, but tell her what you need and stick to your promises to take care of it. I will be back in October to spiff up the TBRRD, and we could do a big old day perhaps.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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ruckman101
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:28 pm

Onto the back brakes, and sure enough, the cylinder on the passenger side has been hemorrhaging brake fluid.

Still a puddle in the drum.

Image


Filthy wheel.

Image


More filth, and soaked shoes.

Image

Image


The culprit.

Image


This is actually the "not as bad side" before crosshatching.

Image


And after working it over per Colin's roadside refresh.

Image


Fingers crossed.



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ruckman101
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:47 pm

Ok, have a replacement set of springs for the back brake system that appears to have a bonus spring that I haven't seen on disassembly. Is this for a beetle or something? Or have I been running brakes with a missing spring that I don't know about.


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Amskeptic
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:48 am

ruckman101 wrote:Ok, have a replacement set of springs for the back brake system that appears to have a bonus spring that I haven't seen on disassembly. Is this for a beetle or something? Or have I been running brakes with a missing spring that I don't know about.
neal
Bonus spring. Many kits have more than you need.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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ruckman101
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:35 pm

The kit made up for it by being shy two springs I did need. Driver's side was in much better shape, although the cylinder was seeping from one side. While I have plenty of brake fluid, I have no one here to assist with the bleeding. How does one bleed the brakes solo?


neal
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Amskeptic
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Re: 1970 Bus Front Brake Confusion

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:42 pm

ruckman101 wrote:The kit made up for it by being shy two springs I did need. Driver's side was in much better shape, although the cylinder was seeping from one side. While I have plenty of brake fluid, I have no one here to assist with the bleeding. How does one bleed the brakes solo?
neal
If you haven't drained the lines, it is not too difficult.

Rear Brakes:
Fill reservoir. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Fill reservoir. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Step on brake pedal and set ebrake. Open the bleeder screw and release the ebrake and let brake fluid drip out. Close bleeder screw. Fill reservoir.

It might only take a couple of times. :flower:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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