1977 Bus - Brakes Drag & Pull

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:13 pm

bretski wrote:Those were my exact symptoms, Sluggo. It became reflex for me to grip the wheel hard when braking, in anticipation of the dive to the left.

I have an extra caliper (rebuilt) in my spare parts stash should you end up needing it...
Which side? How much would you want for it? Wanna trade? I have loads of spare parts but no brake parts (except boosters).

I thought you were supposed to replace both sides at once.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:54 pm

Changed the hoses & switches yesterday. Pretty damn simple. That hose the left rear caliper is in a crappy location. Old hoses had just a small hole ID. Not completely swollen closed but close.

Only problem I had was that reservoir cap on the power bleeder decided it wasn't tight enough about 10 minutes into the bleeding and shot brake fluid all over that little compartment under the seat soaking my "medical kit" in brake fluid. Mighty scary when all this brake fluid comes pouring out underneath the car while your down there bleeding the brakes. Made sure that cap was tight as hell after that.

Couldn't really judge the pull or test them out today because of the heavy wind (being pushed around) & rain (didn't want to stop hard & skid in traffic).

One thing though, the warning light lights up whenever my foot isn't on the brake. Then, after parked for 20 minutes, it stayed out. Then, after parked about 10 minutes, it was on again. It goes out when I press the pedal. Brakes stopped fine.

Still doesn't light up when the ignition is on but engine is off but does with the e-brake on. Is this how late Busses are?
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
dtrumbo
IAC Addict!
Location: Mill Creek, WA
Status: Offline

Post by dtrumbo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:53 pm

Sluggo wrote:One thing though, the warning light lights up whenever my foot isn't on the brake. Then, after parked for 20 minutes, it stayed out. Then, after parked about 10 minutes, it was on again. It goes out when I press the pedal. Brakes stopped fine.
The way the warning light works is if one, but not both of the switches are actuated (by hydraulic pressure), the warning light comes on. So given your situation, one of the switches is either still feeling the hydraulic pressure even though your foot is off the pedal, or it's sticking in the closed (actuated) position. This is why when you do step on the pedal, the other switch actuates and the light goes out. Since you just changed switches, it kinda points to a defective switch (SUCK!). The good news is you know how easy they are to change so it isn't the end of the world.
Sluggo wrote:Still doesn't light up when the ignition is on but engine is off but does with the e-brake on. Is this how late Busses are?
Yes.
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:12 pm

dtrumbo wrote:
Sluggo wrote:Still doesn't light up when the ignition is on but engine is off but does with the e-brake on. Is this how late Busses are?
Yes.
Indeed and here's why :

See, back when VW chose not to alert you that you left the ebrake on, that brake failure warning light had to do its "self-test" with the ignition on.
But when VW wired it to the ebrake, the "self-test" was the fact that it was on because the ebrake was on.
Colin

User avatar
dtrumbo
IAC Addict!
Location: Mill Creek, WA
Status: Offline

Post by dtrumbo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
dtrumbo wrote:
Sluggo wrote:Still doesn't light up when the ignition is on but engine is off but does with the e-brake on. Is this how late Busses are?
Yes.
Indeed and here's why :

See, back when VW chose not to alert you that you left the ebrake on, that brake failure warning light had to do its "self-test" with the ignition on.
But when VW wired it to the ebrake, the "self-test" was the fact that it was on because the ebrake was on.
Colin
... and before that, you had to push the damn button yourself to check the light. I guess VW figured out the human equation early on and knew no one ever pushed the button, thus the ignition-on test circuitry.
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:32 pm

dtrumbo wrote: ... and before that, you had to push the damn button yourself to check the light. I guess VW figured out the human equation early on and knew no one ever pushed the button, thus the ignition-on test circuitry.
. . . and before that, you had to have your assistant jump out of the car with a lantern to warn the horses behind you.
Colin

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:38 am

Just ordered some rebuilt ATE calipers from O'Reilly Auto Parts. $41.99 each +$25 core with free shipping! Best price I've seen. I'll post the results. They have Girlings for $37.99.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:44 am

Diagnosis so far:

Brakes still pull to the left. But the dragging has stopped and the brakes feel much more solid when I press the pedal. Still having the same warning light problem.

My new calipers won't arrive until 1/25 so I guess I'll be doing the calipers, pads, rotors & bearings the following weekend.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

vdubyah73
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Post by vdubyah73 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:10 pm

Does the steering pull left or does the bus kinda just drift left? if the wheel actually pulls left it's front brakes, if the bus just kinda wants to go left and you have to correct, that's rear brakes
1/20/2013 end of an error
never owned a gun. have fired a few.

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:51 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:Does the steering pull left or does the bus kinda just drift left? if the wheel actually pulls left it's front brakes, if the bus just kinda wants to go left and you have to correct, that's rear brakes
When I step on the brakes it actually pulls left. Since I've replaced the hoses I can really feel the system better. The pedal and brake action feels much more solid. It feels like the right caliper doesn't fully engage while the left is making full contact. The right is also squealing a little while braking.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:01 am

Finally got to the brakes yesterday. Haven't taken her for a real test drive yet though. Just once around the block before I had to put away my toys and go inside. I'll let you know the results today.

Passenger disk was missing one of the bolts and was worn to 10.69mm. Caliper was missing retaining plates & tension spring. Pads were new.

Driver disk had one stripped bolt and the disk was worn to 9.54mm! Caliper was missing the retaining plates. Pads were new.

For some odd reason the bearings were new and freshly packed. Why replace/repack the bearings and reinstall the extremely worn disks? Because of one stripped but easily removed bolt? Took me 2 minutes to get it out.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:56 am

Sluggo wrote:Why replace/repack the bearings and reinstall the extremely worn disks?
I had 419,000 miles on my original disks. The reason for replacing them was only that they had gotten so thin in the middle that they would glow orangish after a hard stop. It is not a *bad* thing to extract as much service as possible from parts that work. My brakes never pulsed on that bus. Meanwhile, over in BMW/Lexus Land, disks seem to warp well before they ever get worn.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:47 pm

The Bus no longer pulls to the left when braking. :cheers:

But it does feel a bit soft when braking. Not quite spongy but close. Stops fine. No pulsing or pulling.

While I was down there I extended the left Tie Rod 2 turn to see if it would help my pull to the right. It did a little. But if I let go of the wheel I drift sharply and immediately.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Sluggo
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Wishin' I was Fishin'
Location: Portland, Or.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Sluggo » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:46 pm

Brakes have firmed up a little. The warning light problem went away so I figured there must have been an air bubble that got released when I bleed the brakes but it came back today. Must be a bad switch.

Have to say that the difference is amazing. I don't dip forward any more, don't pull to the left and don't hear any funky noises.

I have to get a set of retaining plates but the brakes are dead silent. Do they serve any purpose aside from stopping squealing? Just want to know if this is something I need to take care of quickly.

I think:
The rear drag was the hoses.
The occasional front drag was the right caliper sticking closed 1/2 the time.
The pulling left 1/2 the time was the right caliper sticking open.
The squealing I would associate with the thin disks & lack of retaining plates or tension springs.
:vwgauge420:

1977 Bus with Sunroof - "Lucky '77"
2000cc Type IV w/Dual Weber 36s,
Aircooled.net SVDA w/Compufire,
Redline Weber Fuel Pump,
Holley Regulator,
Half Ass Brush & Roller Rustoleum Paint Job,
Incomplete Custom Interior,
Dual Batteries,
Crunched Slider Door.
------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:29 pm

Sluggo wrote:Brakes have firmed up a little.
retaining plates serve any purpose aside from stopping squealing?
Keeping the pistons located is a good thing. Get them.

Brakes do firm up as the shoes/pads settle in.

Congratulations, ensuring excellent brakes is step one for responsibility to yourself and others.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Post Reply