78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

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JereandJess
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78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by JereandJess » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:42 pm

A new bus to us that we rescued and have been rehabilitating over the last 18 months. It has found a new home with my brother in Portland, ME, and we are in the final steps of getting it moved to their house.

Engine has been pulled, thoroughly cleaned, engine tin all cleaned and painted, all hoses wires cleaned and repaired where needed.

New extractor type muffler from Bus Depot put in, injectors cleaned and tested with Rich at Cruzin' Performance, new plugs, cap, rotor, condenser, points, and wires. We replaced 2 of the connectors on the FI harness that were broken with clips that were not working any longer. New temp sensor 2. New battery, new air filter, oil change with new filter. Replaced the valve cover gaskets. New fuel pump, fuel filter and all new rubber fuel lines all the way around. All metal fuel lines removed, blown clean and painted. New double relay. The bus came without flaps or a thermostat. We didn't replace them. It's on the list.

Transmission removed, cleaned, drained, and refilled with GL-4. Axles removed, CV's completely cleaned, inspected and put back in.

Adjusted valves and points.

We got the engine/transmission mated up and installed yesterday.

Statically timed it to get it started. Pulled the wire off the coil and turned it over for about 5 seconds. Then repeated twice. Got oil pumped throughout, and the fuel pump was running with fuel pressure right around 28 psi.

Connected the coil wire and it started right up. Half a crank. It was a a great feeling!

Now, it wouldn't let me set the timing at 7.5 btdc without stalling, so it's around 12-15. Went for a drive to get it warmed up, thinking that I would be able to adjust it a bit more once it got warmed up. Bus has not run regularly for about 5 years.

I should also note that even with the new muffler the bus is quite loud. Louder than our other 2 with the same style exhaust at least. I think there is a hole in the exhaust in the heater box, but have not crawled under to feel around for other leaks.

Another thing to mention, it sounds like there is a bit of a vacuum leak coming from the Y connector going to the decel valve and brake booster. I have found a replacement one, thanks type2.com!, but it won't be here until next week. We have it taped and clamped until then, but still can hear an audible hiss from that area.

After driving for about 15 minutes, the engine seems very warm. Shroud is hot to the touch, dipstick is hot also. I can touch it, but barely. I checked out the timing and it is still 12-15, tried turning it down to the needed 7.5 and it almost stalls. The bus has yet to idle smoothly..... As is, it can drive 55mph alright, and it will idle, but it is constantly searching, up and down for a steady idle. The timing bounces around between 10 and 18, but generally is around 12-15.

Looking for suggestions, as they are heading north tomorrow with the bus and I, of course, want it to run as cool and smooth as possible for them....

Also, could someone remind me that if it is running at 15 degrees btdc, that means it is too advanced, which means it is running too lean, correct? Or do I have it backwards?

Thanks for any and all assistance!
Jeremy

~Jeremy (and Jessica)
77 Sage Green Westfalia 2.0 FI
78 Blue Landmark camper 2.0 FI
69 Beetle

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Amskeptic
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:57 am

JereandJess wrote: wouldn't let me set the timing at 7.5 btdc without stalling,
engine seems very warm. Shroud is hot to the touch, dipstick is hot also. I can touch it, but barely. I checked out the timing and it is still 12-15, tried turning it down to the needed 7.5 and it almost stalls. The bus has yet to idle smoothly.....
You better not drive it to Portland! No way. Get this figured out!

You CANNOT fool with the timing to cure an idle issue. People cheat like that all the time and destroy VW engines all across the land.

Adjust the timing at 3,200 RPM (+/- 200 rpm) to 26-28* BTDC with advance vacuum hose off. No fooling around.

Engine does not idle? Tough.
Let's find out why. Get the black plastic cap off the AFM, and have the Jess start the engine if you are Jere, or the Jere start the engine if you are Jess. With the engine at whatever rpm just keeps it running, grab the throttle lever with your left hand and with your right hand, rotate the dancing little wiper in the AFM COUNTER-clockwise about 1/4" at the copper tracking tip, maybe more, and try to feel out the correct mixture that makes the engine happy. As the engine gets happy, reduce rpms! Eventually, you might even get an actual self-standing idle so long as you help the wiper instruct the ECU. If you are able to get a decent mixture, let go of the throttle lever with your left hand. Screw IN CW the mixture screw on the AFM all the way down. Can you let go of the wiper and it will still run?
If so:
You may have a random vacuum leak somewhere. This can include a droopy valve cover gasket, a dipstick not seated or a cracked oil filler pipe, an auxiliary air regulator elbow cracked or split, the brake booster/decel valve rubber wye split, a new split in the S-boot that occurred when you were wrestling it on the throttle body, or a breather hose split, a cracked plastic breather, etc. Do not make any assumptions about "But I checked it yesterday!"

If the engine will NOT RUN without assistance at the throttle lever and AFM simultaneously, you have a more major vacuum leak or other anomaly. Please ensure that the flaps are fully open when engine is warm.

Also, could someone remind me that if it is running at 15 degrees btdc, that means it is too advanced, which means it is running too lean, correct? Or do I have it backwards?
There are no meanings between the two. They are seriously independent phenomena that have only passing effects upon one another.

You can be too advanced, and the mixture is rich.
You can be too retarded, and the mixture is rich.
You can be too advanced, and the mixture is lean.
You can be too retarded, and the mixture is lean.

Your over-advance allows the engine to run with a leaner mixture, yes, but you will be killing the engine ever more effectively by means of blowtorch heat on those poor exhaust valves.

Retarding the timing does help cool the engine, AND richening the mixture does help cool the exhaust valves.

Please track down the problems and do not plan on driving it any distance if the dipstick continues to be too hot to handle and the fan housing is hot to the touch!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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JereandJess
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by JereandJess » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:11 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Adjust the timing at 3,200 RPM (+/- 200 rpm) to 26-28* BTDC with advance vacuum hose off. DONE.

Engine does not idle? Engine idles, but seems to be constantly searching.
Let's find out why. Get the black plastic cap off the AFM, and have the Jess start the engine if you are Jere, or the Jere start the engine if you are Jess. With the engine at whatever rpm just keeps it running, grab the throttle lever with your left hand and with your right hand, rotate the dancing little wiper in the AFM COUNTER-clockwise about 1/4" at the copper tracking tip, maybe more, and try to feel out the correct mixture that makes the engine happy. As the engine gets happy, reduce rpms! Eventually, you might even get an actual self-standing idle so long as you help the wiper instruct the ECU. This is where we are. It will idle for a while on it's own, and occasionally I need to give it a little tap to keep it going. If you are able to get a decent mixture, let go of the throttle lever with your left hand. I don't need to touch the throttle lever at all. Screw IN CW the mixture screw on the AFM all the way down. Can you let go of the wiper and it will still run? It will still run, at least for a little while until I need to bump the wiper.
If so:
You may have a random vacuum leak somewhere. This can include a droopy valve cover gasket, a dipstick not seated or a cracked oil filler pipe, an auxiliary air regulator elbow cracked or split, the brake booster/decel valve rubber wye split (this is my primary focus as I can hear an audible hissing, and I used the old 3 feet of garden hose trick to isolate the sound and it's coming from that region. Could also be the cold start valve, as I don't see a gasket between the plenumn and the CSV. , a new split in the S-boot that occurred when you were wrestling it on the throttle body, or a breather hose split, a cracked plastic breather, etc. Do not make any assumptions about "But I checked it yesterday!"

If the engine will NOT RUN without assistance at the throttle lever and AFM simultaneously, you have a more major vacuum leak or other anomaly. Please ensure that the flaps are fully open when engine is warm. There are no flaps on this engine at this point....
So now I need to figure out the vacuum leak(s?) I guess? I did see that airhead parts is now making a reproduction of that Y for $20 out of viton. Guess I will be ordering a few of those for all the busses!

Do you think that once the vacuum leaks are under control, and the timing properly set that we should be able to see more reasonable temp? It is probably too hard to say until we are there, but theoretically we should, I would guess.

Thanks for the help Colin, as always.

Jeremy
Jeremy

~Jeremy (and Jessica)
77 Sage Green Westfalia 2.0 FI
78 Blue Landmark camper 2.0 FI
69 Beetle

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Randy in Maine
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Randy in Maine » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:15 pm

With the flaps missing, precious little air will travel through the oil cooler.

If you take your CSV into a good FLAPs they may be able to find an EGR valve gasket that sort of fits pretty well. I want to say it is a Buick something. Permatex avaiation will help it become vacuum tight.

Put some duct tape on the brake booster feed at the airl plenum and see if that changes the way it runs. You need to deal with the vacuum leaks.

I say it won't make it up here the way it is. I do have a towbar if he wants to borow it.
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Bleyseng
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:08 pm

Randy in Maine wrote:With the flaps missing, precious little air will travel through the oil cooler.
=D> Stupid previous owner as the oil cooler needs AIR to cool the oil going thru the cooler. The Flaps guide air into the cooler once the engine warms up. No, flaps....no cooling. :bootyshake:

yes, sounds like a vacuum leak and advancing the timing to get it to idle and then driving it will kill the engine. If you are seeing 10-18 BTDC at idle then at 3500 rpms you are seeing 31-40 BTDC and it will run hot.
Geoff
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by airkooledchris » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:14 pm

you may not have removed enough tinware on this motor to see what the PO really did with the flaps.

the rod on mine is missing, which means that flap on the passenger side is gone, but the one on the driver side is really connected to the fan housing, and they may have simply bolted it down into a position to always route air over the oil cooler.

this is how mine looks currently:

Image

just saying, don't freak out about that part - yet, if you haven't pulled the cooling tin off the top of the 3/4 side and checked to see if that flap was in place or not.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:31 pm

airkooledchris wrote:you may not have removed enough tinware on this motor to see what the PO really did with the flaps.

the rod on mine is missing, which means that flap on the passenger side is gone, but the one on the driver side is really connected to the fan housing, and they may have simply bolted it down into a position to always route air over the oil cooler.

this is how mine looks currently:

Image

just saying, don't freak out about that part - yet, if you haven't pulled the cooling tin off the top of the 3/4 side and checked to see if that flap was in place or not.
Just pull the #4 sparkplug connector and aim a little mirror towards the fan housing. Shine a light on the mirror to illuminate the hole. Aim it towards the fan housing and look for oil cooler fins. If yes, no flap is there. If you can discern the black vane, your oil cooler is at least getting dedicated air.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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JereandJess
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by JereandJess » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:25 pm

No Flaps. This is the only pic I have of the disassembly of the engine that you can see there is no bar going across to connect the 2 flaps.....Not good. The search is now on.

Image

Why do people remove the flaps? I don't get it.

On a good note, I was able to spend more time really looking at vacuum leaks, and tightened up some clamps, added more clamps, and found a plenumn/brake booster Y that was in much better shape than what was there.

All this combined to allow me to get the bus to idle pretty steady at 7.5 BTDC at 950-1000 RPM, and when I get the RPM up to 2800 the vacuum advance hose off I get 26-28 BTDC. Seems to be pretty good in regards to what we are shooting for, right?

Now I guess I need to take it for a bit of a drive and see how the temps are. This bus does not have any gauges, so I am just going on dipstick and shroud temps by touch.
Jeremy

~Jeremy (and Jessica)
77 Sage Green Westfalia 2.0 FI
78 Blue Landmark camper 2.0 FI
69 Beetle

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JereandJess
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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by JereandJess » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:20 am

Just got back from a test drive......MUCH better. The dipstick wasn't hot at all, nor the shroud. Now need to fine tune things with Colin's great write up here:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7761

On to the next troubleshooting....leaking oil.....
Jeremy

~Jeremy (and Jessica)
77 Sage Green Westfalia 2.0 FI
78 Blue Landmark camper 2.0 FI
69 Beetle

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Lanval » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:52 am

J&J,

It's worth noting that some mechanics down here deliberately remove the flaps when rebuilding the engines. In SoCal where it's warmish to hot often, the pre-heat function is a throw-away. The reasoning on the part of the mechanics is that "if the pre-heat function fails with the flaps closed, you cook the engine." (side note: Volvo B230 engines have a similar set up where the pre-heat absolutely will fail in the closed [heating function] and kill the AFM in a hurry)

Colin will no doubt point out that this idea is all hooey. He's probably right. Nonetheless, you should be aware that a goodly number of VWs are cruising around SoCal without the flaps, and for the most part happily. They probably run like crap for the first few minutes, and do some damage to the engine in start up mode. But it's not deadly.

Mike

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by airkooledchris » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:00 pm

but without the cooling flap on the drivers side, it won't be directing cool over directly over the oil cooler and not just preventing it from warming up faster, but fail to send a proper amount of cooling air to the oil cooler?

or is that hogwash?

in my example pic above, isn't the cooling flap always mounted in this position the default to aid in the cooling of the oil in the oil cooler?

or will this make the oil cooler hotter all the time and provide better cooling to the heads all the time? now im confuzzed. my oil did get well into the 260's during my last long hard drive..
1979 California Transporter

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Lanval » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:31 pm

airkooledchris wrote:but without the cooling flap on the drivers side, it won't be directing cool over directly over the oil cooler and not just preventing it from warming up faster, but fail to send a proper amount of cooling air to the oil cooler?

or is that hogwash?

in my example pic above, isn't the cooling flap always mounted in this position the default to aid in the cooling of the oil in the oil cooler?

or will this make the oil cooler hotter all the time and provide better cooling to the heads all the time? now im confuzzed. my oil did get well into the 260's during my last long hard drive..
It's probably not ideal, but the question is "how much less?" I don't suppose that the engineers planned it that way, but I'd be willing to get the engine can take some decrease there without entering into end stage failure. Maybe 75% is enough... who knows. Not ideal, but my point was that the OP was worried about it. It's not an engine killer, in the short run anyway. It might well shorten the life of the engine, but I'll leave that for Colin to argue.

Mike

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by SlowLane » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:40 am

Lanval wrote:
airkooledchris wrote:but without the cooling flap on the drivers side, it won't be directing cool over directly over the oil cooler and not just preventing it from warming up faster, but fail to send a proper amount of cooling air to the oil cooler?

or is that hogwash?

in my example pic above, isn't the cooling flap always mounted in this position the default to aid in the cooling of the oil in the oil cooler?

or will this make the oil cooler hotter all the time and provide better cooling to the heads all the time? now im confuzzed. my oil did get well into the 260's during my last long hard drive..
It's probably not ideal, but the question is "how much less?" I don't suppose that the engineers planned it that way, but I'd be willing to get the engine can take some decrease there without entering into end stage failure. Maybe 75% is enough... who knows. Not ideal, but my point was that the OP was worried about it. It's not an engine killer, in the short run anyway. It might well shorten the life of the engine, but I'll leave that for Colin to argue.

Mike
Since Colin didn't jump in on this, I'll do my best to contribute.

Removing the air flaps "to improve cooling" seems to be a persistent myth among air-cooled VW mechanics dating back to the '60s. Seems that the early drag racers did it, so it must have been the right thing to do. So much for perceived wisdom.

Chris is absolutely correct about the left-hand flap. It must in place to redirect air flow over the oil cooler, even if the rod and right-hand flap is missing (in which case it needs to be fixed in place to prevent it from, er, flapping around). This is one of the many places where type IV engines differ from type 1 engines, so your average type 1 expert's opinion isn't going to be valid here (so much hot air, so to speak).

Some years ago Colin had drawn up some exquisite diagrams of the type IV cooling system. I wonder if they're around here someplace...

The argument about removing the flaps to guard against thermostat failure is only valid if we're talking about the wax pellet type of thermostat, commonly found in water-cooled thermostats, which do stay in the closed position when they fail (and it's not just Volvo B230 engines Mike. Volvo used those friggin' things on just about every model they built to control the warm air flap. And yes, they toast the MAF very nicely when they fail, which they inevitably do after 7-10 years).

The bellows type of thermostat originally fitted to the air-cooled VWs, however, is designed to fail in the open position. The most common mode of failure is for a crack to develop in the bellows after years of faithfully opening and closing. Since the bellows operates on a fine balance of internal and external pressure, the loss of that differential pressure allows the bellows to relax and expand, aided by the external flap-opening spring.

But original bellows-type thermostats are getting harder to come by (particularly the type IV ones, which operate at a different temperature than the type 1 ones). A few years ago, a new thermostat type appeared on the air-cooled aftermarket which employed a wax-pellet type thermostat, combined with a powerful spring to force the thermostat closed when cold. I recall they were marketed as the Mexican thermostat. Well, guess what? These thermostats fail in the closed position, which was quickly discovered by the air-cooled community and subsequently vilified. I don't know if these things are still being sold, but stay away from them, unless you are going to be absolutely diligent in monitoring the operation of your thermostat on a regular basis.

Lyle
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:50 am

SlowLane wrote:left-hand flap must in place to redirect air flow over the oil cooler, even if the rod and right-hand flap is missing (in which case it needs to be fixed in place to prevent it from, er, flapping around). wax-pellet type stay away from
What he said.

We need to come up with a thermostat that works reliably. Calling all engineers ...
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 78 Westy Hyd 2.0 FI wandering timing, running hot

Post by bajaman72 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:29 am

I seem to recall someone on TS classifieds selling rebuilt ones. He was rebuilding original ones somehow. I think he has an ad buying used/bad thermostats for rebuild as well. I'll go "over there" if I have time today and dig up the links.
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